vpFREE2 Forums

Impeach Bob Dancer!

#1

Now, I realize that a lot of people think ol' BD is the bee's knees,
and I'm not about to take on his devoted legions of followers, but
IMHO (which, ONE: Is not rendered lightly and TWO: I am entitled
to), the man has done far more to DESTROY playable VP than to
promote it.

In his book, Million Dollar Video Poker, (which BTW is of very
little practical value), he cheerfully admits that he subordinated
considerations of "morality" in his quest to accumulate a bankroll,
barely stopping short if the cheating line and occasionally even
stumbling over it. Now, I have no real problem with that as such;
it's just that when the wind began to shift, he switched sides
rather abruptly (and to give him his due, he saw it coming very
early in the process), and became bedpals with the
casinos, "consulting" with then and giving them information on how
best to defeat the advantage players.

The current casino mentality seems to be that what is good for us
(the skilled players) must be bad for the casinos, and vice versa.
We actually know how wrong, and how stupid, this attitude is
(witness how busy, AND how profitable Orleans/Gold Coast/Santa
Fe/etc were, even WITH, horrors, HUNDREDS of "beatable" fullpay VP
machines). Bob Dancer rode this train in both directions; he
profited from the good VP opportunities that existed, and then he
profited by telling the casinos how to destroy those opportunities
for others. Furthermore, he has helped "finger" those skilled VP
players who were his competition in the "good old days", and helped
get them barred.

It's too bad we can't go back in time and see what would have
happened if BD, on his way to the casino where he was to hit his
$400,000 royal, had been broadsided by a cement truck. Would there
be more decent VP out there now? Would Gold Coast have anything
better than 7/5 Bonus Poker? Would people be getting barred from the
El Cortez for hitting royals? I wonder.....

#2

rockofjello333 wrote:

Now, I realize that a lot of people think ol' BD is the bee's knees,
and I'm not about to take on his devoted legions of followers, but
IMHO (which, ONE: Is not rendered lightly and TWO: I am entitled
to), the man has done far more to DESTROY playable VP than to
promote it.

Maybe, or maybe not, but I think you're taking this a bit too seriously. No offense to Bob Dancer, or any of the other members of the HOF or nominees, or to Tom Sims, but IMHO, all this is/was is a meaningless popularity contest, although perhaps fun to some degree ... and so I did vote.

But nothing that is said from here on is ever going to change the final outcome of this year's poll, nor should anything be able to change it. As for Bob and the stories he's told in his book, I can't imagine any reason for someone to voluntarily and publicly admit to things that most of us would find incredibly shameful, except for three: to acknowledge one's guilt, for self-serving motives (e.g., to help sell more books), or because that person sees no shame in what they've done wrong. I haven't read any of his books, but I'll give Bob the benefit of the doubt and assume his was the only honorable reason.

Cheers.

Bill Velek

#3

Bill Velek wrote:

As for Bob and the stories he's told in his book, I can't imagine any
reason for someone to voluntarily and publicly admit to things that
most of us would find incredibly shameful, except for three: to
acknowledge one's guilt, for self-serving motives (e.g., to help sell
more books), or because that person sees no shame in what they've done
wrong.

===> I haven't read any of his books, but I'll give Bob the benefit of

the doubt and assume his was the only honorable reason.

Uh, come again?? (I'm talking about the "haven't read" part)

- H.

#4

Harry Porter wrote:

Bill Velek wrote:
> As for Bob and the stories he's told in his book, I can't imagine any
> reason for someone to voluntarily and publicly admit to things that
> most of us would find incredibly shameful, except for three: to
> acknowledge one's guilt, for self-serving motives (e.g., to help sell
> more books), or because that person sees no shame in what they've done
> wrong.

===> I haven't read any of his books, but I'll give Bob the benefit of
> the doubt and assume his was the only honorable reason.

Uh, come again?? (I'm talking about the "haven't read" part)

Everything that I have ever said in regard to Bob and his alleged questionable acts were based on apparent quotes or summaries provided by others. I'd have to go back and check, but I'd be surprised if I didn't usually say something at the outset, like "If that's true ...", and that sort of thing. Admittedly I didn't qualify my above statement, but that's because there have been fairly recent accounts of Bob's alleged admissions, and no one has ever changed those allegations in the least bit to indicate that such things do not appear in his book. If Bob has not admitted to doing such things as hiding a Royal until he could later claim extra money (fraud), or bribing casino employees (conspiracy to commit theft), as were mentioned numerous times in this forum, then I sincerely apologize to him. I just didn't think that actually reading his book is a prerequisite to condemning or criticizing that sort of conduct. And as I said, I am giving him the benefit of the doubt as far as that goes.

Cheers.

Bill Velek

#5

Correction in the wording of my last post, as follows:

Bill Velek wrote:

snip

... Admittedly I didn't qualify my above statement, but
that's because there have been fairly recent accounts of Bob's alleged
admissions, and no one has ever changed those allegations ...

That was supposed to read: "... and no one has ever _challenged_ those allegations ...".

Sorry.

Bill Velek

#6

Bill Velek wrote:

That was supposed to read: "... and no one has ever _challenged_ those
allegations ...".

While I would hardly expect (or think it appropriate) for Dancer to
step into the fray on that particular discussion thread, I'll step
forward for your sake to challenge the context, vague detail, and
spirit in which those allegations have been put.

Since that may very well invite a response (from others), I strongly
suggest any discussion along those lines be moved over to FREEvpFREE.
It'll certainly provide comic relief to the extended "Aykroyd/Curtin
Point Counterpoint" thread over there.

But, Bill, I strongly suggest you pick up a copy of "Million Dollar
Video Poker" so that you can evaluate for yourself what's been written.

- H.

#7

Rastis, seconds the motion.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "rockofjello333" <rockofjello333@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 10:57 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Impeach Bob Dancer!

Now, I realize that a lot of people think ol' BD is the bee's knees,
and I'm not about to take on his devoted legions of followers, but
IMHO (which, ONE: Is not rendered lightly and TWO: I am entitled
to), the man has done far more to DESTROY playable VP than to
promote it.

#8

Rastis thinks that one does not have to read a book in order to conclude
that Bob Dancer and Jean Scott have done more to destroy full pay video
poker than anyone else. When the final 100%+ ER VP machine is removed from
the floor of the last casino offering a positive game, Rastis thinks both
should be charter inductees in the VP Hall of Shame.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@verizon.net>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 2:23 AM
Subject: Correction: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Impeach Bob Dancer!

But, Bill, I strongly suggest you pick up a copy of "Million Dollar
Video Poker" so that you can evaluate for yourself what's been written.

#9

Don't blame me, I voted for Jean Scott.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333"
<rockofjello333@y...> wrote:

Now, I realize that a lot of people think ol' BD is the bee's

knees,

and I'm not about to take on his devoted legions of followers, but
IMHO (which, ONE: Is not rendered lightly and TWO: I am entitled
to), the man has done far more to DESTROY playable VP than to
promote it.

In his book, Million Dollar Video Poker, (which BTW is of very
little practical value), he cheerfully admits that he subordinated
considerations of "morality" in his quest to accumulate a

bankroll,

barely stopping short if the cheating line and occasionally even
stumbling over it. Now, I have no real problem with that as such;
it's just that when the wind began to shift, he switched sides
rather abruptly (and to give him his due, he saw it coming very
early in the process), and became bedpals with the
casinos, "consulting" with then and giving them information on how
best to defeat the advantage players.

The current casino mentality seems to be that what is good for us
(the skilled players) must be bad for the casinos, and vice versa.
We actually know how wrong, and how stupid, this attitude is
(witness how busy, AND how profitable Orleans/Gold Coast/Santa
Fe/etc were, even WITH, horrors, HUNDREDS of "beatable" fullpay VP
machines). Bob Dancer rode this train in both directions; he
profited from the good VP opportunities that existed, and then he
profited by telling the casinos how to destroy those opportunities
for others. Furthermore, he has helped "finger" those skilled VP
players who were his competition in the "good old days", and

helped

get them barred.

It's too bad we can't go back in time and see what would have
happened if BD, on his way to the casino where he was to hit his
$400,000 royal, had been broadsided by a cement truck. Would there
be more decent VP out there now? Would Gold Coast have anything
better than 7/5 Bonus Poker? Would people be getting barred from

the

···

El Cortez for hitting royals? I wonder.....

#10

hansjurgent wrote:

Don't blame me, I voted for Jean Scott.

Now that's no excuse ...

In any democracy, a passive minority can expect to thrive or find
itself wanting at the whim of the majority :wink:

- H.

#11

Harry Porter wrote:

snipped stuff about Bob Dancer's book

... I strongly
suggest any discussion along those lines be moved over to FREEvpFREE.
It'll certainly provide comic relief to the extended "Aykroyd/Curtin
Point Counterpoint" thread over there.

I generally avoid FREEvpFREE as much as possible because I just don't have time to participate, and the 'signal to noise' ratio -- at least in the past -- has not been very good. Besides, I've explained my position and how I arrived at it, and I don't see any point in pursuing it further.

But, Bill, I strongly suggest you pick up a copy of "Million Dollar
Video Poker" so that you can evaluate for yourself what's been written.

I'll check to see if the library has it or can get it; otherwise, I'll have to do without because there are higher priorities for my library -- including a number of books on brewing beer. :wink:

Cheers.

Bill Velek

#12

Rasti$ P. Rulz wrote:

Rastis thinks that one does not have to read a book in order to
conclude that Bob Dancer and Jean Scott have done more to destroy
full pay video poker than anyone else. When the final 100%+ ER VP
machine is removed from the floor of the last casino offering a
positive game, Rastis thinks both should be charter inductees in the
VP Hall of Shame.

If players at Suncoast (and other Coast properties) abandoned the
property like rats fleeing a sinking ship at the time FPDW was
removed, Suncoast would have reversed course with haste.

However, when they lost only their most nuisancesome players (those
who were true "advantage" players) yet the rest of the flock simply
started banging away at the NSUD paytables, Coast knew it was onto a
good thing.

The long term survivability of strong paytables depends upon players
DEMANDING them, and refusing to play anything else. I'm scratching my
head over the fact other casinos (notably Stations) hasn't followed suit.

I don't have specifics on Coast's financial performance since the FPDW
cuts but the market's been VERY bullish on Boyd Gaming since it's
initial merger announcement with Coast in February. I have to think
that Coast has been a real feather in their cap.

- Harry

#13

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:

If players at Suncoast (and other Coast properties) abandoned the
property like rats fleeing a sinking ship at the time FPDW was
removed, Suncoast would have reversed course with haste.

However, when they lost only their most nuisancesome players (those
who were true "advantage" players) yet the rest of the flock simply
started banging away at the NSUD paytables, Coast knew it was onto

a

good thing.

Suncoast retained its positional advantage of being the
only "Summerlin" casino, aside from the Rampart (which was not even
really competitive), even after destroying their VP. They retained
all the Wheel Of Fortune players, the Keno hounds, etc. There were
also a number of positive VP players who, since the Rampart wasn't a
viable playing option (VP death occuring there as well), shrugged
and started playing 9/7 DB and NSUD.

By contrast, Gold Coast turned into a tomb after the VP was
destroyed; Orleans has stayed busy on the strength of its excellent
restaurants, big sportsbook, movie multiplex, etc. Another thing
that hurts GC in particular is that if you want good VP, you can
just walk across the street to the Palms; no such option exists for
disgusted Orleans patrons.

The biggest barometer, however, that I can read of how hard up Coast
is for customers, is their upgrading of cashback to .3 from .25.
We've all seen how Vegas casinos are struggling to get AWAY from
cashback, and now, this, the first major-casino cashback increase in
several years. Now, the outstanding slot club points (cumulative of
all members) have to be carried on the books of the corporation as a
liability; this change means an increase in the liability of 20%
(which would have to be offset by some voodoo accounting maneuver
such as an increase in "Goodwill"). This is turn hurts shareholder
value in the short term (equivalent to a massive advertising and
promotional expense). So why on earth would they have done this? Out
of DESPERATION IMHO. This represents the first crack in the facade
of casino collusion--the tacit (or maybe baldly stated in some 45th
floor suite secret meeting) agreement that all the locals casinos
would downgrade their VP more or less simultaneously so that no one
casino would suffer.

I, for one, DO "vote with my feet": I play NSUD just long enough to
get to the $10K coin-in level, which gets me the good mailer, and
then the only time I will darken their doorstep for the rest of that
month is to have a meal or two with the points I earned.

#14

It give me pleasure to see that you are upset about Bob Dancer's
induction.

Rastis thinks that one does not have to read a book in order to

conclude

that Bob Dancer and Jean Scott have done more to destroy full pay

video

poker than anyone else. When the final 100%+ ER VP machine is

removed from

the floor of the last casino offering a positive game, Rastis

thinks both

should be charter inductees in the VP Hall of Shame.

From: "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 2:23 AM
Subject: Correction: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Impeach Bob Dancer!

> But, Bill, I strongly suggest you pick up a copy of "Million

Dollar

> Video Poker" so that you can evaluate for yourself what's been

written.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rasti$ P. Rulz" <vpvegas@c...> wrote:

----- Original Message -----

#15

When the final 100%+ ER VP machine in removed from the floor of the last casino offering a positive game, could Bob D please turn off the lights.

hansjurgent <hansjurgent16@hotmail.com> wrote:It give me pleasure to see that you are upset about Bob Dancer's
induction.

Rastis thinks that one does not have to read a book in order to

conclude

that Bob Dancer and Jean Scott have done more to destroy full pay

video

poker than anyone else. When the final 100%+ ER VP machine is

removed from

the floor of the last casino offering a positive game, Rastis

thinks both

should be charter inductees in the VP Hall of Shame.

From: "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 2:23 AM
Subject: Correction: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Impeach Bob Dancer!

> But, Bill, I strongly suggest you pick up a copy of "Million

Dollar

> Video Poker" so that you can evaluate for yourself what's been

written.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rasti$ P. Rulz" <vpvegas@c...> wrote:

----- Original Message -----

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