It's been mentioned several times that using the strategy for 9/6JB
when playing 8/5BP reduces the EV of the 8/5BP by a very very small
amount. I'm not disputing that at all ... my question is how to make
that determination. For example, if I use Linda's 9/6DDB strategy card
to play 10/6DDB at Red Rock, how do I determine how much the EV drops?
I believe, and maybe this is wrong, that none of the VP software allows
the use of a strategy developed for 1 game, when playing another, or to
compute the EV using a different strategy. If so, then how is the
difference computed?
Impact of Strategy on EV; A Question
brumar_lv wrote:
It's been mentioned several times that using the strategy for 9/6JB
when playing 8/5BP reduces the EV of the 8/5BP by a very very small
amount. I'm not disputing that at all ... my question is how to make
that determination. For example, if I use Linda's 9/6DDB strategy
card to play 10/6DDB at Red Rock, how do I determine how much the EV
drops?
I believe, and maybe this is wrong, that none of the VP software
allows the use of a strategy developed for 1 game, when playing
another, or to compute the EV using a different strategy. If so,
then how is the difference computed?
Frugal VP software is unique in analyzing a game when played with the
strategy of another (or when strategy is "tweaked" ... e.g. hold 2A vs
2pr in 10/7 DB).
That said, it's not that difficult to calculate ER for a game when
played by another strategy. (It's helpful to use a spreadsheet to
help with the arithmetic.) In short, you multiply the probability for
each hand (which is fixed for each game strategy, no matter what
machine you may be playing) by the revised payout for the new paytable
-- and then sum the values across all paying hands.
For example, if evaluating the ER for 10/7 DB played with 9/6 JB
strategy, you would first determine the hand distribution of play. To
do this using a program such as winpoker, you take the DB template and
key in the payouts for 9/6 JB. All quads will pay 125, e.g.
When you analyze the game, you should see the standard 9/6 Jacks ER of
99.54%. Hand probabilities will be identical to when run the analysis
for the standard Jacks template, but now you can see the necessary
breakdown between quad types (e.g. .020% of hands are quad Aces).
To calculate the revised 10/7 DB ER, you multiply the hand
probabilities by their respective payout and sum the results. For
example, to find the contribution of Aces, multiply .020% x 400 = 0.16
coins
When you sum the product for all hand payouts in this case, you get
4.98 coins expected payback. Against a 5 coin wager, this is an ER
for 10/7 DB played with 9/6 JB strategy of 99.63%.
(Note, I've calculated more precise hand probabilities using the
winpoker analysis detail -- e.g. Aces = .01957%)
- Harry
<<Frugal VP software is unique in analyzing a game when played with the
strategy of another (or when strategy is "tweaked" ... e.g. hold 2A vs
2pr in 10/7 DB).
That said, it's not that difficult to calculate ER for a game when
played by another strategy.>>
I love you, Harry, but do you notice how long it took you to explain how to do it manually. "Not difficult" means for a math expert. For the most of us, it would not only be "difficult" - but "impossible."
···
________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - "FRUGAL VIDEO POKER"
This new book (autographed) and other
frugal products are now available at my
new Web site, http://queenofcomps.com/.
E-mail address is queenofcomps@cox.net.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
queenofcomps wrote:
I love you, Harry, but do you notice how long it took you to explain
how to do it manually. "Not difficult" means for a math expert. For
the most of us, it would not only be "difficult" - but "impossible."
Come on, Jean ... you know I'm likely to make playing Wheel of Fortune
sound like rocket science, given the opportunity 
- H.
Glad this question was posted, because I didn't realize I could do
that with FVP. (and one more reason for me to love the program!)
This solves one problem I've been thinking about.
We like to play progressives, especially where there are no other
positive machines. For example, a 9/6 JoB (or an 8/5 BP) with
progressive RF at 6000 coins is positive; however, what if you make no
adjustments to strategy what's the EV then? Now I can figure it
easily with FVP 
My reason for this is to see how much EV is given up to continue
enjoying the lower volitility.
So here's what I did...
1. Using FVP, I created a 9/6 JOB game with a 6000 coin RF
Stats for this game are ER 100.65%, Var 46.45, RF contributed 3.54%
to the total return
2. I tweaked the strategy chart to be as close to the regular, basic
9/6 JOB chart as possible.
States for this game were ER 100.55%, Var 40.13, RF contributed
3.02% to the total return
It seems odd that the variance is still so high. However, I assume
the higher value of the RF is what's doing that, since there's very
little difference otherwise.
Bottom line, until I hit the RF, I'm experiencing the same
volitility as a standard 9/6 JOB Machine.
3. I then modified an 8/5 Bonus Poker machine to have a RF of 6000
coins. Then, I changed the strategy chart to be as much like the
9/6 JOB chart as possible. Result; 100.22% ER.
MY CONCLUSION from this is; as a recreational player I'll play
progressive BP and JoB machines with the standard 9/6 JOB strategy.
I'll be giving up very little in the way of total return, and I'll
enjoy the low volitility of these games, since I won't have to make
any big changes to strategy. (e.g. I won't be throwing away JJ to
go for 3 to a RF, etc.)
Mac
Mac,
With the progressive at 6000 coins you give up 0.12% using full pay
strategy. I agree that for an occasional player it is not worth learning all
the strategy changes for some progressives. Full pay strategy on some
progressives can be very expensive.
Consider this.
Playing 6/5 JB progressive at reset using 9/6 JB (4000 coin) strategy you
give up only 0.01%.
Playing this progressive when it reaches102% using 9/6 JB (4000 coin)
strategy you give up 1.31%.
I have the cost of using full pay strategy on some progressive's listed
here. http://videopoker.fws1.com/progressive_strat.htm
5-card
···
_____
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
Mac McClellan
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 6:40 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Impact of Strategy on EV; A Question
So here's what I did...
1. Using FVP, I created a 9/6 JOB game with a 6000 coin RF
Stats for this game are ER 100.65%, Var 46.45, RF contributed 3.54%
to the total return
2. I tweaked the strategy chart to be as close to the regular, basic
9/6 JOB chart as possible.
States for this game were ER 100.55%, Var 40.13, RF contributed
3.02% to the total return
It seems odd that the variance is still so high. However, I assume
the higher value of the RF is what's doing that, since there's very
little difference otherwise.
Bottom line, until I hit the RF, I'm experiencing the same
volitility as a standard 9/6 JOB Machine.
3. I then modified an 8/5 Bonus Poker machine to have a RF of 6000
coins. Then, I changed the strategy chart to be as much like the
9/6 JOB chart as possible. Result; 100.22% ER.
MY CONCLUSION from this is; as a recreational player I'll play
progressive BP and JoB machines with the standard 9/6 JOB strategy.
I'll be giving up very little in the way of total return, and I'll
enjoy the low volitility of these games, since I won't have to make
any big changes to strategy. (e.g. I won't be throwing away JJ to
go for 3 to a RF, etc.)
Mac
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...>
wrote:
Frugal VP software is unique in analyzing a game when played with
the
strategy of another (or when strategy is "tweaked" ... e.g. hold 2A
vs
2pr in 10/7 DB).
That said, it's not that difficult to calculate ER for a game when
played by another strategy. (It's helpful to use a spreadsheet to
help with the arithmetic.) In short, you multiply the probability
for
each hand (which is fixed for each game strategy, no matter what
machine you may be playing) by the revised payout for the new
paytable
-- and then sum the values across all paying hands.
For example, if evaluating the ER for 10/7 DB played with 9/6 JB
strategy, you would first determine the hand distribution of play.
To
do this using a program such as winpoker, you take the DB template
and
key in the payouts for 9/6 JB. All quads will pay 125, e.g.
When you analyze the game, you should see the standard 9/6 Jacks ER
of
99.54%. Hand probabilities will be identical to when run the
analysis
for the standard Jacks template, but now you can see the necessary
breakdown between quad types (e.g. .020% of hands are quad Aces).To calculate the revised 10/7 DB ER, you multiply the hand
probabilities by their respective payout and sum the results. For
example, to find the contribution of Aces, multiply .020% x 400 =
0.16
coins
When you sum the product for all hand payouts in this case, you get
4.98 coins expected payback. Against a 5 coin wager, this is an ER
for 10/7 DB played with 9/6 JB strategy of 99.63%.(Note, I've calculated more precise hand probabilities using the
winpoker analysis detail -- e.g. Aces = .01957%)- Harry
Thanks for the explanation, and mentioning that FVP can be used.
This sounds like a very good reason to own FVP. Sorry for the delay
in responding ... I've been out of LV (and no internet access) for a
month.
brumar_lv wrote:
Thanks for the explanation, and mentioning that FVP can be used.
This sounds like a very good reason to own FVP. Sorry for the delay
in responding ... I've been out of LV (and no internet access) for a
month.
As I described, it can be a relatively straightforward task to
manually calculate the ER of a game when played with the strategy of
another (i.e. 10/7 DB with 9/6 JB strategy) using a simple spreadsheet.
However, where FVP really earns its stripes is in determining an
adjusted ER for specific strategy modifications -- e.g. holding trip
Aces over an Aces full house. To my knowledge, it stands unsurpassed
in addressing that challenge.
- Harry