vpFREE2 Forums

I Need Help with my VP Playing Style

Ok, it's been long enough, and I've been very stubborn. When I play, I pick the cards on the screen. I don't make mistakes, but at the same time I probably only put out 600-650 hands an hour. I need to learn, and improve, and speed things up.

The thing is, I don't live in Vegas. So it's not like I can just stand and look over Frank Kneeland's shoulder and see how it's done. Someone's going to have to help me and explain in writing to me, how to work the buttons, and then I can practice in my local Indian Casino. Trust me, there's no one here that I can learn from. It's like Oliver and Lisa Douglas of Green Acres here.

Any tips, suggestions, personal methods from fellow VPFreers would be appreciated.

I'm an older dog, but not too old to learn and change. If I can give up sodium in my diet, well I can do this too. Think positive!

thx,
-BB

If you can get through 600hph only using the touchscreen, then you are moving!
Personally, I hate using the screen, as it just makes extra work for my hands (have a little carpal tunnel)
I recommend practicing typing...if you can get your typing speed up to like 60-70wpm, then your fingers will be used to moving around quickly on the buttons.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Bartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

Ok, it's been long enough, and I've been very stubborn. When I play, I pick the cards on the screen. I don't make mistakes, but at the same time I probably only put out 600-650 hands an hour. I need to learn, and improve, and speed things up.

The thing is, I don't live in Vegas. So it's not like I can just stand and look over Frank Kneeland's shoulder and see how it's done. Someone's going to have to help me and explain in writing to me, how to work the buttons, and then I can practice in my local Indian Casino. Trust me, there's no one here that I can learn from. It's like Oliver and Lisa Douglas of Green Acres here.

Any tips, suggestions, personal methods from fellow VPFreers would be appreciated.

I'm an older dog, but not too old to learn and change. If I can give up sodium in my diet, well I can do this too. Think positive!

thx,
-BB

I am under the impression that most serious players do between 800-1000 hands per hour. So I believe I am behind the curve, and I know I am practically alone in my stubborn refusal to stop using touch-screen.

Practicing typing sounds like good advice. So thanks for that.

I would still like to watch how some players crank out more hands, but like I said, I'm not in Vegas and there is no one here to learn from.

I forget what Frank Kneeland gets out, but it is an unbelievable number. I saw someone at the Palms many years ago just blazing on the button board, so fast it was practically a blur. That might have been Frank.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "provpplayer" <provpplayer@...> wrote:

If you can get through 600hph only using the touchscreen, then you are moving!
Personally, I hate using the screen, as it just makes extra work for my hands (have a little carpal tunnel)
I recommend practicing typing...if you can get your typing speed up to like 60-70wpm, then your fingers will be used to moving around quickly on the buttons.

The only way to break the 2000 hands/hour mark is by playing two machines. I think I remember finding a single machine that was fast enough to get over 1600 hands/hour once but normally machines just aren't fast enough to get much more than 1000 - 1200 on a single machine. Maybe some of the newer ones are now, but honestly I don't really bother to calculate my hands per hour very much anymore.

If you really want to get more hands per hour on a single machine, the single best thing to do is keep your fingers on all five hold buttons and hit all your holds simultaneously instead of sequentially. If you can do that you will see a significant immediate increase. It'll take a little getting used to making your fingers work in concert but it's not too hard. If your hands are big enough, and you can keep fingers on all the hold buttons AND have your pinky on the deal/draw you'll get even more hands out because you aren't wasting your time moving your whole hand over. Unfortunately my hands aren't big enough to do this comfortably enough to put in the lengthy shifts I work, but I would assume it could give you an extra 20% boost or so. I'm not sure if the touch screen can respond to multiple holds simultaneously, but I would guess you'll have to switch to buttons to get numbers like this. It might put you out of your comfort zone momentarily but as long as you aren't making mistakes playing this way, it's considerably more money in your pocket and worth trying.

Increased speed is a respectable goal, but accuracy should be stressed over speed in any circumstance. If, after a hand has been displayed, you don't have absolute confidence in your hold selection (and aren't acutely attuned to any errors you do commit but fail to catch before hitting draw), then you're playing too fast.

That said, the best means to to play speed is a crisp, precise play style. When it comes down to it, effective play style is simply a rhythmic exercise: deal, scan, hold, rescan for errors, draw. (Still, such "rhythmic" play has to be monitored ... it's easy to fall into a pace where you start hitting draw before you've thoroughly completed an accurate card scan.)

If you know your strategy cold, there's little reason that a hand should take little more than 3 seconds to execute (a play speed of around 1200 hph on a reasonably fast machine). It helps if you become accustomed to playing with both hands (say two buttons with your left hand, and three with your right), and are able to operate the buttons without having to take your eyes away from the screen (looking for confirmation that you've pressed the correct buttons by the "Hold" indicator on the screen). Most machines will permit you to select all draw cards with a concurrent stroke of your fingers.

There's no question that being an effective touch typist pre-disposed me to this play style. I'm not sure that practicing touch typing as a means to better vp play is a practical approach though (as was suggested).

A key means to increased speed is to forgo a review of your hand results -- just triple tap the deal/draw key to move on quickly. (Sometimes I find myself quickly scanning the change in my credit meter rather than looking at the draw results in order to keep the play moving ... particularly when playing a multiline machine.)

- H.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Bartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

I am under the impression that most serious players do between 800-1000 hands per hour. So I believe I am behind the curve, and I know I am practically alone in my stubborn refusal to stop using touch-screen.

Practicing typing sounds like good advice. So thanks for that.

I would still like to watch how some players crank out more hands, but like I said, I'm not in Vegas and there is no one here to learn from.

I forget what Frank Kneeland gets out, but it is an unbelievable number. I saw someone at the Palms many years ago just blazing on the button board, so fast it was practically a blur. That might have been Frank.

Thank you to all who replied. It all sounds like very helpful advice and I am going to work on this. I will print out all of your suggestions and find a method or combination of your suggestions that works for me. It's going to be a big change, yes, but I am determined to improve this aspect of my game. Improving to 800 hands per hour will be good, and 1000 would be very good. I'd be thrilled to reach 1000, and maintain accuracy.

I have an Indian casino nearby where I can start practicing right away. Thanks again to everyone.

-BB

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Bartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

I need to learn, and improve, and speed things up.

They used to have speed and endurance tournaments and Frank always won them, so he claims to be the world's fastest video poker player, but check this guy out, he might be even faster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEdm4eoGIMU

···

at a gun duel, nobody was faster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-2hAJy_35w --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Bartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "provpplayer" <provpplayer@> wrote:
>
> If you can get through 600hph only using the touchscreen, then you are moving!
> Personally, I hate using the screen, as it just makes extra work for my hands (have a little carpal tunnel)
> I recommend practicing typing...if you can get your typing speed up to like 60-70wpm, then your fingers will be used to moving around quickly on the buttons.
>
>

I am under the impression that most serious players do between 800-1000 hands per hour. So I believe I am behind the curve, and I know I am practically alone in my stubborn refusal to stop using touch-screen.

Practicing typing sounds like good advice. So thanks for that.

I would still like to watch how some players crank out more hands, but like I said, I'm not in Vegas and there is no one here to learn from.

I forget what Frank Kneeland gets out, but it is an unbelievable number. I saw someone at the Palms many years ago just blazing on the button board, so fast it was practically a blur. That might have been Frank.

What was it again that Frank claims as his speed rate? I forget.

I miss Frank. I enjoyed listening to him on the weekly radio show and reading him on vpfree. An interesting man.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

They used to have speed and endurance tournaments and Frank always won them, so he claims to be the world's fastest video poker player,

best way to develop finger strength, finger pushup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cSi_FyddWI

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Bartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Bartop" <bobbartop@> wrote:
>
> I need to learn, and improve, and speed things up.
>

Thank you to all who replied. It all sounds like very helpful advice and I am going to work on this. I will print out all of your suggestions and find a method or combination of your suggestions that works for me. It's going to be a big change, yes, but I am determined to improve this aspect of my game. Improving to 800 hands per hour will be good, and 1000 would be very good. I'd be thrilled to reach 1000, and maintain accuracy.

I have an Indian casino nearby where I can start practicing right away. Thanks again to everyone.

-BB

Frank doesn't like to brag about his talents, besides his dance card is fulled up these days, but my understanding is that he was conservatively rated at 3,000 HPH on a single old style machine. Of course, if there was money on the line, he could go faster, whatever is necessary to win.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Bartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
>
> They used to have speed and endurance tournaments and Frank always won them, so he claims to be the world's fastest video poker player,
>

What was it again that Frank claims as his speed rate? I forget.

I miss Frank. I enjoyed listening to him on the weekly radio show and reading him on vpfree. An interesting man.

Great idea. I'll start with 20 girl's push ups a day, and work my way up. Should I buy some protein powder?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

best way to develop finger strength, finger pushup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cSi_FyddWI

This sounds almost super human. Not just the physical capability, but the mental that has to go with that. If it was some unknown person making this claim, I would not believe it. I could not believe it. But I am sure Frank is serious, and I respect your opinion also, and I know as a fact that he is known for his speed at video poker, so I DO believe it. But it's "unbelievable". Even though I believe it.

I don't think even my Video Poker For Winners goes that fast on auto-run. lol

3000 hph? Wow. That's CRAZY!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

Frank doesn't like to brag about his talents, besides his dance card is fulled up these days, but my understanding is that he was conservatively rated at 3,000 HPH on a single old style machine. Of course, if there was money on the line, he could go faster, whatever is necessary to win.

I'd be thrilled to reach 1000, and maintain accuracy.

Bob,

That's good, but IMHO, reversed. Maintaining accuracy is more important than increasing speed. That final scan of the machine, in which I include both the paytable section for the highlighted line, if any, as well as the cards I am holding is critical. Cards can be held and unheld by a quick double push, a button can be mechanically pushed by your finger but not sufficiently to hold the card, or there can be that jumbled-up straight that your eye just might not have registered that can cause what VP training programs call critical, serious or severe errors. Any of those can be much more costly than can be made up for by a 10% increase in speed.

You did get a lot of valid suggestions for speed increases, just don't neglect the other side of the equation!

Guru

P.S. and that's coming from someone who HATES to sit next to someone who uses the screen to select his cards. The constant motion in my peripheral vision can be distracting, and sometimes I want to scream (especially when it is a woman whose 35 jangly bracelets add a soundtrack to the dancing). But to each his (or her) own, so I would never say anything about someone's foibles.

P.P.S. Except that once on an NCL cruise when an older woman was making herself a totally obnoxious witch (sp) with her continual screaming of obscenities at the machine, the attendants, the drink servers, and her fellow players, spewing smoke and scattering ashes. She changed machines and sat down next to me and I was very reluctant to move because the machine was playing nicely for me. I tried to ignore her, until she cursed me specifically after I pulled quad Aces just holding a singleton. But "Ignorant, C---------g F--k, you get Aces and I get S--t!@#$%^&&*&^%$# etc."? Ignorant? Screw you, sweetheart, I worked hard for my Masters degree.

I turned to her, looked her right in the eye and softly said "Malocchio" and made the mano cornuta gesture at her machine. Now I'm not saying that I was profiling, but let's just say that I really believed she would understand exactly what both the words and the gesture would mean. She turned pale, shut totally up, which was a welcome silence, and played another couple of hands. She got absolutely nothing either before or after the draw - not a single card to even hold. She cashed out and rushed away. Later on, I overheard her telling her girlfriend that she'd been cursed. And although she did play some more during the cruise, keeping up her obnoxious antics unfortunately, every time I sat down to play, she immediately cashed out and went rushing away as if the devil was chasing her.

Certainly the game is rigged. Don’t let that stop you; if you don’t bet, you can’t win. -Lazarus Long
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is. -Yogi Berra
There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe. -Robert Heinlein

________________________________

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Teaching cats to play is the future, plus they get monster mailers, casino management loves them, no way will any casino ever 86 a cat, it would be a total media blowup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On4ErtaF5BM

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Bartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
>
> Frank doesn't like to brag about his talents, besides his dance card is fulled up these days, but my understanding is that he was conservatively rated at 3,000 HPH on a single old style machine. Of course, if there was money on the line, he could go faster, whatever is necessary to win.
>

This sounds almost super human. Not just the physical capability, but the mental that has to go with that. If it was some unknown person making this claim, I would not believe it. I could not believe it. But I am sure Frank is serious, and I respect your opinion also, and I know as a fact that he is known for his speed at video poker, so I DO believe it. But it's "unbelievable". Even though I believe it.

I don't think even my Video Poker For Winners goes that fast on auto-run. lol

3000 hph? Wow. That's CRAZY!

Find a 1 cent machine and hit deal/redraw as fast a possible and count the number of hands in 30 seconds. Then multiple the result by 120. I doubt very many machines are even capable of 3,000 HPH.

That said, the biggest hurdle is being able to process the information that fast.

For those that know the video game Tetris, I bet if this guy knew video poker then he could test the upper limits of VP speed. After 5 minutes, it turns into invisible Tetris.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwC544Z37qo

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

Frank doesn't like to brag about his talents, besides his dance card is fulled up these days, but my understanding is that he was conservatively rated at 3,000 HPH on a single old style machine. Of course, if there was money on the line, he could go faster, whatever is necessary to win.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Bartop" <bobbartop@> wrote:
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
> >
> > They used to have speed and endurance tournaments and Frank always won them, so he claims to be the world's fastest video poker player,
> >
>
>
> What was it again that Frank claims as his speed rate? I forget.
>
> I miss Frank. I enjoyed listening to him on the weekly radio show and reading him on vpfree. An interesting man.
>

My untested belief based on a small sample (two) is that VP playing speed is directly related to reading speed. Probably 80% natural ability and 20% practice. My wife Chris reads extremely fast, she can easily finish a typical paperback novel in less than a day without effort. She plays video poker at about 1000-1200 hands per hour without any effort on games that she knows well and I clocked her several years ago (if I remember correctly) at 1600 on FPDW back when we were playing that a lot. She can play 1000 hph and carry on a conversation! I, on the other hand, make mistakes at any speed when I get chatty. Seriously, I struggle to get over 800 with accuracy when concentrating on the task. My ADD may have something to do with it :wink: Put a couple glasses of wine in me and I'm probably better off playing craps!

Happy travels

Mac
www.CasinoCamper.com

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Bartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

Ok, it's been long enough, and I've been very stubborn. When I play, I pick the cards on the screen. I don't make mistakes, but at the same time I probably only put out 600-650 hands an hour. I need to learn, and improve, and speed things up.

Bob,

Most of the time speed is not important unless you are in a vp tournament or you have a timelimit to earn entries for a drawing or promotion. Do you actually have an edge at your local casino? Is your playing time limited?

I would start by using the left hand on the hold button and the right on the draw button and see what kind of speed you can reach without making errors. You should surpass your old playing speed in a short time. You can go faster by using your right hand on the 1 or 2 closest hold buttons, but some are not comfortable with this at high speed.

Good luck!

Chris

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Bartop" <bobbartop@> wrote:
>
> Ok, it's been long enough, and I've been very stubborn. When I play, I pick the cards on the screen. I don't make mistakes, but at the same time I probably only put out 600-650 hands an hour. I need to learn, and improve, and speed things up.

Undoubtedly, there are a few athletes who can achieve amazing speeds. But I strongly suspect that MANY of the HPH claims that we see are exaggerated. Or that they amount to self-delusion. What I would suggest to anyone is to have a friend sit next to you, and count the number of hands you complete in 15 minutes. Then see what that comes out to per hour. And have the friend watch your play, and try to note any errors you make, too.

Personally, I think that I can do about 700 HPH without significant errors, under good conditions. With practice, I might be able to do better on a game with which I was very experienced, on a day when I was at my physical and mental peak.

Rather than work on pushing the limits on speed, I think that most players would be better off finding the pace at which they could play error-free. Squeezing in an extra 100 HPH is going to be greatly counterproductive, if at the cost of making even one serious error per hour.

Achievable speed is going to depend on many factors. It will be limited by the characteristics of the individual machine. While I can go at a good clip on a single line machine, I find that I'm much slower even on a three-play machine, just because of the rhythm of how the machine operates. It may be impossible to click past the paced display of results. It may be necessary to wait a beat before pressing the play button again. Sometimes pressing it early simply has no effect. Sticky buttons, of course, are the bane of our existence. Play too fast on one of those machines, and you'll get errors that have nothing to do with mentally making a wrong choice. Another example of a problem machine would be a wide-display machine such as is found at M Resort and various other places. I appreciate what they're trying to do by putting in big screens. However, it turns out that the card display extends beyond my field of vision, and I lose time having to dart left and right with my eyes to take it all in.

The game that one is playing is a big factor, of course. I maintain that you could train a chimp to play JOB. But most of us will be slower on something a lot more complicated, like Double Bonus.