I just don't understand...

[Barry_Glazer]

2e. Re: I just don't understand...
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:57 pm ((PST))

......

Being asked not to play video poker or having your comp/CB account
pulled is the equivalent of being barred.

Being asked not to play is the equivalent of being barred (in my opinion).

Being told you are welcome to play other games does not, in my opinion, mean you haven't been barred -- it's like telling you that you're welcome at the restaurant, but you can only order the items you don't like.

Having your comp / CB account pulled RETROSPECTIVELY (taking away what you've already earned) is worse, in my opinion, but having your comps or CB withheld IN ADVANCE - you're no longer eligible for those programs - is simply saying "we give these things to induce play by returning a portion of our expected win to the player; since we don't expect to win from you...."

I'm quite honestly surprised that most casinos don't take the easiest way out (and more and more are doing so), which is simply to provide paytables against which the skilled player can win little or nothing, no matter how skilled he/she is. That's the equivalent of, in blackjack, changing some of the rules (like changing the pay for blackjack from 3:2 to 6:5, or not allowing double downs on certain hands, or not allowing double downs after splitting a pair, and so on) - or of setting the shuffle point in a multi-deck game to a place where the player needs a 20:1 bet spread instead of 4:1 in order to gain an edge against the house (and which even an unskilled pit boss can spot as "suspicious", therefore not practical even if you DO have the bankroll to use such a spread AND to tolerate the swings it would produce).

I've done a pretty good job of not being detected since. I refuse to
meet casino hosts, etc., and I usually blow the popsicle stand before
the jig is up.

While I haven't experienced barring from VP (I don't play it that often, that long, and perhaps not that well), I have had several barrings from when I played blackjack, counting cards. I started out refusing to give my name to hosts for comps, etc. -- and then I realized that the non-counting high-rollers not only gave their names, but were constantly asking for some kind of comp -- so I bought a gaudy gold bracelet (I couldn't manage to put on a gaudy gold necklace) that I only wore in Vegas, ASKED to be rated every time I sat down, and constantly asked for the comps (RFB, limo's, suites, etc.) -- and after I did that, went ten years without a barring.

All while earning a healthy, if roller-coaster, stream of cash coming in.

The trick is to look around and see how the non-advantage player looks and acts, and try as hard as possible to look and act the same way (yes, I know, that usually means you can't play 800 hands an hour anymore for 12-16 hours, but what good is all that volume if you aren't allowed to generate it anymore?).

Quite honestly, now I play VP recreationally, not for income, as I really don't believe there are any opportunities for profit if you pay taxes honestly (or, even if you don't, if you live in one of those states that doesn't allow losses to offset wins on W2Gs).

Unless you play for quarters on less, so that you don't generate W2Gs on single-line. I think even at $1 single line, the W2G on the royal is enough to kill any edge you might have, after taxes.

"Recreational" doesn't mean that I am interested in routinely playing games with a large house edge, but it does mean that I'll take a 0.5% disadvantage in exchange for the comps it generates, even if I still don't quite break even (which is hard to do if you value the comps at their worth to you, instead of the price tag the casino puts on a room or a meal).

And I'll occasionally pull out some extra $$ and put it in the rare positive expectation game, but if you are in a location where such games are not frequently or easily found or travelled to, this doesn't come up that often -- an occ. big progressive, good paytable, or high multiplier on cash back - that comes at a time when I'm free to go and play (usually when I was planning to go anyway).

I've switched to live poker mostly, with an occ. hour (or four, if my session bankroll lasts) at the VP machines. Unless you cheat or disrupt the poker room, they are pretty good about letting poker players stay and play.

The downside of poker, of course, is that your expectation is variable, depending on who you're playing. At blackjack I could sit down at a table with the six best players in the world, and still expect to win, since I wasn't playing against the players. At poker, if I am the 10th best player in the world, and sit down with the nine that are better than me, I can expect to lose.

And I'm pretty sure my ranking would be somewhere below #10

--BG

···

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[jackessiebabe]

Hi Barry,

In my "fleabitten" opinion, you've written one of the most sensible
posts that I've read, regarding barrings, deep-sixings, being cut
off from offers and CB, and flying under the radar. Thanks for a
very intelligent message!

My other comments are imbedded below.

···

==============================================
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, b.glazer@... wrote:

Being asked not to play is the equivalent of being barred

(in my opinion).

Being told you are welcome to play other games does not, in my
opinion, mean you haven't been barred -- it's like telling you that
you're welcome at the restaurant, but you can only order the items
you don't like.

An excellent analogy with which I totally agree.

I have never personally been barred from playing any game, at any
casino. I must really be a ploppie instead of a flea! {(O:

However, I have good friends, as well as one family member, who have
suffered this indignity.

Two of my friends were told that their play was "too strong" and the
casino no longer would permit them to play ANYTHING at that
property. They were both interrupted in the middle of a VP session,
by suits accompanied by security. They were led to a private office,
given whatever cash remained in their accounts, and told not to come
back again.

My DIL, a "hunch playing" BJ and Craps gambler, was told that her BJ
action would no longer be tolerated at that casino. Her sin was
winning $500 in a nickle game at a downtown casino. Sitting at the
same table was her husband (my son) a card-counting professional
actuary, who has never wagered on anything in any casino where he
did not have a clear advantage. That day he was losing about two
Bennies, so they left him alone.

Having your comp / CB account pulled RETROSPECTIVELY (taking

away what you've already earned) is worse, in my opinion

I have actually never heard of this happening, though I suppose that
it has. I would think that this type of punitive action, on the
part of the casino, probably resulted from a greater infraction than
just winning too much, or only playing on X points days.

but having your comps or CB withheld IN ADVANCE - you're no

longer eligible for those programs - is simply saying "we give these
things to induce play by returning a portion of our expected win to
the player; since we don't expect to win from you...."

As has been pointed out to me by one of my most knowledgable pro
friends, the casino does NOT owe you any perks whatever. Be grateful
if they provide some comps, FP and CB along with a few good games.

Since in most cases, the casinos must report to their stockholders,
they are obligated to run their businesses as profitably as possible.

That may necessitate treating an advantage player as something that
is hazardous to their bottom line. At that point they either bar
the player or take steps to see that the player is no longer playing
with much of an advantage.

Any for-profit business would operate in the same manner, as
distasteful as it may be to those of us that are affected.

I'm quite honestly surprised that most casinos don't take

the easiest way out (and more and more are doing so), which is
simply to provide paytables against which the skilled player can win
little or nothing, no matter how skilled he/she is.

I do think that's exactly what they are doing, much to the chagrin
of most of us. However, as long as there are still some places in
Nevada, where a rec player can find positive machines, I'm not going
to complain too much.

I do fear for the survival of the VP pros. I think that it will
become more and more difficult for them to be able to make a
satisfactory living strictly by playing VP. OTOH, it may just "thin
out the crop". Only the best of the best will survive.

                       ~SNIP~

then I realized that the non-counting high-rollers not only

gave their names, but were constantly asking for some kind of comp --
so I bought a gaudy gold bracelet (I couldn't manage to put on a
gaudy gold necklace) that I only wore in Vegas, ASKED to be rated
every time I sat down, and constantly asked for the comps (RFB,
limo's, suites, etc.) -- and after I did that, went ten years
without a barring.

Very clever and perceptive, Barry. Whatever works for you is
certainly a good course of action.

I always ask for every comp that is available to me as well. Though
I try very hard not too ask for more than I'm entitled to, at my
level of play. I never realized that was the key to playing w/o
heat! {(O:

The trick is to look around and see how the non-advantage

player looks and acts, and try as hard as possible to look and act
the same way................

HA! No problem for me! I'm already a little, old lady!

"Recreational" doesn't mean that I am interested in

routinely playing games with a large house edge, but it does mean
that I'll take a 0.5% disadvantage in exchange for the comps it
generates, even if I still don't quite break even..............

You sound exactly like my pro friend who tells me often that this
should be the way I view VP these days. I'm beginning to believe
both of you!

Thanks again for an extremely good post.

I hope that you have great luck in all your gambling endeavors.

~Babe~