vpFREE2 Forums

I beat the odds on NSUD

#1

Glad to here that you at least got some of it back! Actually since you would expect about 4.3 sets of deuces and just under half a royal in that many hands you could expect a loss of about $550 with your royal and deuce results. Your other results add about $870 to that which means you were probably shorted on wild royals and quints also and/or are poor players. (Note: I know this guy and saw part of this play. Ednar and his wife and play practically perfect NSU.)

···

----- Original Message -----
From: Ednar
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 7/20/2003 10:45:44 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] I beat the odds on NSUD

Sick of reading about people winning? Here's something you'll enjoy....

Here's one that sure makes you wonder why you play VP.

Today on triple play .25 NSUD.

21296 hands (7098 deals) $26620 coin in
Lost $1,420
ZERO sets of deuces
At the lowest point we were down $2050 and then the wife got a ROYAL on the
redeal. Amazingly enough even after the Royal were were down $1,050. We
kept playing in hopes of some deuces . No luck. After 12 hours we quit.
This is our worst ever run and brings my total recent hands without a ROYAL
to about 3 Royal cycles.

Here's another example of a bad run.

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#2

Thanks Howard. It was pretty amazing. We were quite short on wild Royals.
I believe we had 17 during the fist 8 hours. Just for clarification, I do
not follow the KH penalty rules nor do I play the unpenalized two card
straight flush rule. Other than that and the occasional mistakes we all
make (Howard saw me make one) we play the strategy fro NSUD very closely.
This is a good example of how bad things can really get. It was loads of
fun! (not)

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Stern" <howard.w.stern@earthlink.net>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 7:58 AM
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] I beat the odds on NSUD

Glad to here that you at least got some of it back! Actually since you

would expect about 4.3 sets of deuces and just under half a royal in that
many hands you could expect a loss of about $550 with your royal and deuce
results. Your other results add about $870 to that which means you were
probably shorted on wild royals and quints also and/or are poor players.
(Note: I know this guy and saw part of this play. Ednar and his wife and
play practically perfect NSU.)

----- Original Message -----
From: Ednar
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 7/20/2003 10:45:44 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] I beat the odds on NSUD

Sick of reading about people winning? Here's something you'll enjoy....

Here's one that sure makes you wonder why you play VP.

Today on triple play .25 NSUD.

21296 hands (7098 deals) $26620 coin in
Lost $1,420
ZERO sets of deuces
At the lowest point we were down $2050 and then the wife got a ROYAL on

the

redeal. Amazingly enough even after the Royal were were down $1,050. We
kept playing in hopes of some deuces . No luck. After 12 hours we quit.
This is our worst ever run and brings my total recent hands without a

ROYAL

to about 3 Royal cycles.

Here's another example of a bad run.

#3

Man, I feel for you. That's a long stretch.
We played again this weekend and I got 0 quad deuces. I can't count how many
deuces cycles I'm into.
The wife got two of them pretty quickly but we still wound up down about
$800.

I give you credit for hanging in there and continue to play.
After a while I just need the mental break from losing constantly and I just
roam outside and stare at the sky...

···

-----Original Message-----
  From: Ednar [mailto:ed…@…com]
  Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 12:02 PM
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Cc: Ginny Thorpe
  Subject: Re: [vpFREE] I beat the odds on NSUD

  Thanks Howard. It was pretty amazing. We were quite short on wild
Royals.
  I believe we had 17 during the fist 8 hours. Just for clarification, I
do
  not follow the KH penalty rules nor do I play the unpenalized two card
  straight flush rule. Other than that and the occasional mistakes we all
  make (Howard saw me make one) we play the strategy fro NSUD very closely.
  This is a good example of how bad things can really get. It was loads of
  fun! (not)

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Howard Stern" <howard.w.stern@earthlink.net>
  To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 7:58 AM
  Subject: RE: [vpFREE] I beat the odds on NSUD

  > Glad to here that you at least got some of it back! Actually since you
  would expect about 4.3 sets of deuces and just under half a royal in that
  many hands you could expect a loss of about $550 with your royal and deuce
  results. Your other results add about $870 to that which means you were
  probably shorted on wild royals and quints also and/or are poor players.
  (Note: I know this guy and saw part of this play. Ednar and his wife and
  play practically perfect NSU.)
  >
  >
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: Ednar
  > To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  > Sent: 7/20/2003 10:45:44 PM
  > Subject: [vpFREE] I beat the odds on NSUD
  >
  >
  > Sick of reading about people winning? Here's something you'll enjoy....
  >
  > Here's one that sure makes you wonder why you play VP.
  >
  > Today on triple play .25 NSUD.
  >
  > 21296 hands (7098 deals) $26620 coin in
  > Lost $1,420
  > ZERO sets of deuces
  > At the lowest point we were down $2050 and then the wife got a ROYAL on
  the
  > redeal. Amazingly enough even after the Royal were were down $1,050.
We
  > kept playing in hopes of some deuces . No luck. After 12 hours we
quit.
  > This is our worst ever run and brings my total recent hands without a
  ROYAL
  > to about 3 Royal cycles.
  >
  > Here's another example of a bad run.
  >

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#4

I thought you might get a kick out of this. I believe it is VERY important
for people to see the balance. Every session will not a be a winner. You
must have an adequate bankroll to survive the swings. This is true
regardless of what "approach" of VP play you subscribe to.

We are pretty disciplined and will only lose the bankroll session we take.
It is dissapointing to lose in long stretches but not too surpsiing. I
have run several simulations on Winpoker with NSUD .25 triple play and
found that our losses were on the low side but not the lowest (although
close). However I never had a simulation that showed me losing over $2000
which is where we were at our lowest point.

I cannot imagine what teh downside must be for dollar ten plays. I am
certain daily losses nearing ten thousand would be very possible.

···

Man, I feel for you. That's a long stretch.
We played again this weekend and I got 0 quad deuces. I can't count how
many
deuces cycles I'm into.
The wife got two of them pretty quickly but we still wound up down about
$800.

I give you credit for hanging in there and continue to play.
After a while I just need the mental break from losing constantly and I
just
roam outside and stare at the sky...

#5

Sorry to interrupt for just a minute here...
I'd like to know what exactly the term NSUD. Is it
"Not So Ugly Ducklings" or "Not So Ugly Deuces"?
If someone is going thru long stretches of losing,
he/she will probably be calling this "VUD" for "Very
Ugly Ducklings" or "VUDW" for "Very Ugly Deuces Wild".

Wouldn't it be more appropriate to call this game
"AFPDW" for "Almost Full Pay Deuces Wild" or "DW
25/15/4/4" or something similar?

I noticed that DB, JOB, BP, DDB, and the others don't
have another name when their Pay Schedules are
reduced.

...just a thought...

···

--- Ednar <ednar@kconline.com> wrote:

I thought you might get a kick out of this. I
believe it is VERY important
for people to see the balance. Every session will
not a be a winner. You
must have an adequate bankroll to survive the
swings. This is true
regardless of what "approach" of VP play you
subscribe to.

We are pretty disciplined and will only lose the
bankroll session we take.
It is dissapointing to lose in long stretches but
not too surpsiing. I
have run several simulations on Winpoker with NSUD
.25 triple play and
found that our losses were on the low side but not
the lowest (although
close). However I never had a simulation that
showed me losing over $2000
which is where we were at our lowest point.

I cannot imagine what teh downside must be for
dollar ten plays. I am
certain daily losses nearing ten thousand would be
very possible.

> Man, I feel for you. That's a long stretch.
> We played again this weekend and I got 0 quad
deuces. I can't count how
> many
> deuces cycles I'm into.
> The wife got two of them pretty quickly but we
still wound up down about
> $800.
>
> I give you credit for hanging in there and
continue to play.
> After a while I just need the mental break from
losing constantly and I
> just
> roam outside and stare at the sky...

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#6

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Gilbert Escobar <gilbert_616@y...>
wrote:

Sorry to interrupt for just a minute here...
I'd like to know what exactly the term NSUD. Is it
"Not So Ugly Ducklings" or "Not So Ugly Deuces"?
If someone is going thru long stretches of losing,
he/she will probably be calling this "VUD" for "Very
Ugly Ducklings" or "VUDW" for "Very Ugly Deuces Wild".

Wouldn't it be more appropriate to call this game
"AFPDW" for "Almost Full Pay Deuces Wild" or "DW
25/15/4/4" or something similar?

I noticed that DB, JOB, BP, DDB, and the others don't
have another name when their Pay Schedules are
reduced.

The derivation of this is that the pay schedule of
800/125/15/9/4/4/3/2/1 was brought out as a "conversion" paytable to
change machines from FPDW. The idea of this was to fool the unwary
into thinking that since the pays on the full house and flush were
increased, that would more than compensate for the reduction of the
payoff for four-of-a-kind. This was not the case as the game only
pays 99%. Thus the term, "Ugly Ducks" (you can see where that came
from).
Soon after, a variation came out wherein the Ugly Ducks paytable was
enhanced by increasing the payout on the straight flush and the five
of a kind by one unit. This brought the payout back up to very close
to breakeven (99.8%, if memory serves). This game was actually a
better choice than JOB or several other games offered in many
casinos; often today it is the highest-paying game available in
Strip casinos, riverboats, and places like Tunica and Biloxi. Thus,
the term was amended to NSUD: "NOT SO Ugly Ducks".
Note that NSUD ONLY refers to the 800/125/16/10/4/4/3/2/1 version.
Some of us also call this "Sixteen-Ten deuces" which highlights the
most significant changes on the paytable.

#7

NSUD is the term that has gained pretty much complete acceptance for the
Deuces 16/10/4/4/3/2/1 paytable. It was coined on the Skip Hughes vp group
during several discussions a few years ago. There are so many rotten
paytables (or at least different ones) that this continues to be the most
appropriate and logical as far as I am concerned. However, that being said,
my wife and I are now referring to it as Non-existent Deuces.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gilbert Escobar" <gilbert_616@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 5:28 PM
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] I beat the odds on NSUD

Sorry to interrupt for just a minute here...
I'd like to know what exactly the term NSUD. Is it
"Not So Ugly Ducklings" or "Not So Ugly Deuces"?
If someone is going thru long stretches of losing,
he/she will probably be calling this "VUD" for "Very
Ugly Ducklings" or "VUDW" for "Very Ugly Deuces Wild".

Wouldn't it be more appropriate to call this game
"AFPDW" for "Almost Full Pay Deuces Wild" or "DW
25/15/4/4" or something similar?

I noticed that DB, JOB, BP, DDB, and the others don't
have another name when their Pay Schedules are
reduced.

...just a thought...

--- Ednar <ednar@kconline.com> wrote:
> I thought you might get a kick out of this. I
> believe it is VERY important
> for people to see the balance. Every session will
> not a be a winner. You
> must have an adequate bankroll to survive the
> swings. This is true
> regardless of what "approach" of VP play you
> subscribe to.
>
> We are pretty disciplined and will only lose the
> bankroll session we take.
> It is dissapointing to lose in long stretches but
> not too surpsiing. I
> have run several simulations on Winpoker with NSUD
> .25 triple play and
> found that our losses were on the low side but not
> the lowest (although
> close). However I never had a simulation that
> showed me losing over $2000
> which is where we were at our lowest point.
>
> I cannot imagine what teh downside must be for
> dollar ten plays. I am
> certain daily losses nearing ten thousand would be
> very possible.
>
> > Man, I feel for you. That's a long stretch.
> > We played again this weekend and I got 0 quad
> deuces. I can't count how
> > many
> > deuces cycles I'm into.
> > The wife got two of them pretty quickly but we
> still wound up down about
> > $800.
> >
> > I give you credit for hanging in there and
> continue to play.
> > After a while I just need the mental break from
> losing constantly and I
> > just
> > roam outside and stare at the sky...
>
>

__________________________________
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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

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#8

One more point, for the historical record, is that the name was coined by Skip Hughes.

···

At 10:48 PM 07/21/2003 +0000, you wrote:

The derivation of this is that the pay schedule of
800/125/15/9/4/4/3/2/1 was brought out as a "conversion" paytable to
change machines from FPDW. The idea of this was to fool the unwary
into thinking that since the pays on the full house and flush were
increased, that would more than compensate for the reduction of the
payoff for four-of-a-kind. This was not the case as the game only
pays 99%. Thus the term, "Ugly Ducks" (you can see where that came
from).
Soon after, a variation came out wherein the Ugly Ducks paytable was
enhanced by increasing the payout on the straight flush and the five
of a kind by one unit. This brought the payout back up to very close
to breakeven (99.8%, if memory serves). This game was actually a
better choice than JOB or several other games offered in many
casinos; often today it is the highest-paying game available in
Strip casinos, riverboats, and places like Tunica and Biloxi. Thus,
the term was amended to NSUD: "NOT SO Ugly Ducks".
Note that NSUD ONLY refers to the 800/125/16/10/4/4/3/2/1 version.
Some of us also call this "Sixteen-Ten deuces" which highlights the
most significant changes on the paytable.

#9

Tonight I ran several simulations on Frugal Video Poker to compare with the
runs I did on Winpoker. Interestingly enough it confirmed once again the
POSSIBILITY of yesterday's bad run. The beauty of this program is that it
provides a visible graphical representation of the simulation. This feature
alone demonstrates one of the reasons that I strongly recommend this
program. For the new player it helps clarify what can and does happen. The
need for a bankroll and playing within it is clearly visualized.

I think all dedicated VP players need Winpoker, Frugal Video Poker and VPSM
(as they can afford them). Purchasing these items has been worth every
cent. This is an unpaid endorsement.

#10

One more point, for the historical record, is that the name was

coined by

Skip Hughes.

To be perfectly accurate, the term "NSUD" was coined by "Skip
Hughes". "Skip Hughes" is one of several pseudonyms used by an
unfortunate mental patient who is kept chained in a cellar to avoid
danger to others, and was given a computer with internet access to
keep him amused. The computer was inadvertently equipped with the
latest version of "WinPoker", thus, all the VP posts. (This is the
inspiration for the character, "Ruprecht" in the Michael Caine/Steve
Martin movie, "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels").

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:

At 10:48 PM 07/21/2003 +0000, you wrote:

#11

mkl54321 wrote:

To be perfectly accurate, the term "NSUD" was coined by "Skip
Hughes". "Skip Hughes" is one of several pseudonyms ...

<sigh> ... you know, there just has to be another yahoo! group where
this kind of stuff would find a more appropriate home.

- H.

#12

Doesn't he have loud shouting matches with his "mother" as well?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mkl54321" <mkl54321@y...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:
> At 10:48 PM 07/21/2003 +0000, you wrote:
> One more point, for the historical record, is that the name was
coined by
> Skip Hughes.
>
To be perfectly accurate, the term "NSUD" was coined by "Skip
Hughes". "Skip Hughes" is one of several pseudonyms used by an
unfortunate mental patient who is kept chained in a cellar to avoid
danger to others, and was given a computer with internet access to
keep him amused.

#13

To be perfectly accurate, the term "NSUD" was coined by
"Skip Hughes" etc., etc..

···

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#14

I believe it was Skip Hughes who came up with the NSUD name. Good
luck. TomSki

#15

Skip invented the term NSUD as he also invented the term Ugly Ducks. The
Ugly duck game actually premiered on the east coast at the Foxwoods casino-
when it first opened. I called it at that point "foxwood deuces". That term
never caught on , as most of Skips readers at that time were Las Vegas and
Reno sorts. Soon after , "foxwood deuces" found its way to McCarran airport
where Skip later coined the term "airport deuces" and then Ugly Ducks. The
game was ignored for quite a while until the improved NSUD popped up
somewhere.

regards...Tom

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "TomSkiLV" <tomskilv@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 10:09 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: The origin of the term, NSUD

I believe it was Skip Hughes who came up with the NSUD name. Good
luck. TomSki

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