vpFREE2 Forums

I attended a Bob Dancer/ Fleas

#1

jw776655 wrote:

His posts here have tried to make the point that he is

simultaneously helping the casino and players. Based on his
presentation, nothing could be farther from the truth. <<<

jw776655 also wrote:

The context was : Dancer explained a $1 full pay vp machine may
yield, for example, $30/hour to the minority of disciplined players
who can play perfect strategy.

This is not desirable. However, the same machine can be allowed to
remain at the 25 cent level. It may yield $7.50/hour profit to those
players with discipline and the ability to play perfect strategy.
However, these are [laughing] "fleas".

I don't see anything in your report that contradicts "His posts here
have tried to make the point that he is simultaneously helping the
casino and players" nor do I see anything that adequately supports
"Based on his presentation, nothing could be farther from the truth".

Also I don't see anything particularly offensive or inaccurate in
referring to 25c advantage players as fleas.

FWIW, I don't begrudge anyone using their knowledge and experience
as a casino video poker consultant, even if it works to my disadvantage
- which isn't a given. In theory, I prefer having a guru who is a
player and a marketer of video poker products for players, as a casino
consultant over someone who isn't a player or a marketer. The both
sides of the fence worker/player has a much greater vested interest in
preserving and promoting advantage plays than someone with fewer
irons in the fire.

I'm hopeful (but not holding my breath) that enlightened video poker
consultants may advise casinos to install and aggressively market
positive games and thereby fill some of those empty video poker seats.
They could use us fleas as loss leaders (winning players to be
emulated) to greatly expand the video poker universe, and be happy
with us fleas having a small piece of a much bigger pie.

vpFae

#2

I'm hopeful (but not holding my breath) that enlightened video poker
consultants may advise casinos to install and aggressively market
positive games and thereby fill some of those empty video poker

seats.

They could use us fleas as loss leaders (winning players to be
emulated) to greatly expand the video poker universe, and be happy
with us fleas having a small piece of a much bigger pie.

vpFae

Anyone have a good analogy for playing both sides of the
fence here? Lawyer, doctor, consulting engineer, priest,
none of these seems to have the same dynamic as this
situation. I can't think of another situation where someone
simotaneously; advises the house, actively and agressively
tries to exploit the house and competing players, sells other
services to the house and sells products to other players
(fleas). Somehow the relationship seems wrong, but I'm not
judging just looking for a good comparison.

#3

This is an opinion that I have to agree with.

Regards
A.P.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: vpFae6128305
  To: vpFREE@Yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 2:03 PM
  Subject: [vpFREE] Re: I attended a Bob Dancer/ Fleas

  Also I don't see anything particularly offensive or inaccurate in
  referring to 25c advantage players as fleas.

  FWIW, I don't begrudge anyone using their knowledge and experience
  as a casino video poker consultant, even if it works to my disadvantage
  - which isn't a given. In theory, I prefer having a guru who is a
  player and a marketer of video poker products for players, as a casino
  consultant over someone who isn't a player or a marketer. The both
  sides of the fence worker/player has a much greater vested interest in
  preserving and promoting advantage plays than someone with fewer
  irons in the fire.

  I'm hopeful (but not holding my breath) that enlightened video poker
  consultants may advise casinos to install and aggressively market
  positive games and thereby fill some of those empty video poker seats.
  They could use us fleas as loss leaders (winning players to be
  emulated) to greatly expand the video poker universe, and be happy
  with us fleas having a small piece of a much bigger pie.

  vpFae

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#4

How about a real estate broker.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: worldbefree22001
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 2:41 PM
  Subject: [vpFREE] Re: I attended a Bob Dancer/ Fleas

  Anyone have a good analogy for playing both sides of the
  fence here? Lawyer, doctor, consulting engineer, priest,
  none of these seems to have the same dynamic as this
  situation. I can't think of another situation where someone
  simotaneously; advises the house, actively and agressively
  tries to exploit the house and competing players, sells other
  services to the house and sells products to other players
  (fleas). Somehow the relationship seems wrong, but I'm not
  judging just looking for a good comparison.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#5

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "worldbefree22001" <krajewski.sa@p...>
wrote:

Anyone have a good analogy for playing both sides of the
fence here? Lawyer, doctor, consulting engineer, priest,
none of these seems to have the same dynamic as this
situation. I can't think of another situation where someone
simotaneously; advises the house, actively and agressively
tries to exploit the house and competing players, sells other
services to the house and sells products to other players
(fleas). Somehow the relationship seems wrong, but I'm not
judging just looking for a good comparison.

Right now there's a lot of debate about restaurant reviewers and
other food writers as to how closely connected to the food industry
they can be, how many freebies they can accept, etc. I just earlier
today saw, but can't locate again at the moment, an article about (as
I recall) a guy who was reviewing a restaurant and kept complaining
about not enough salt in the food-- and turns to import salt himself.
That's an extreme example but if you visit food sites such as eGullet
dot org you'll see every opinion under the sun on this.

I think also if you look at medicine and drug companies you'll see a
lot of debatable interactions.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything questionable here; just saying
that quite a few discussions go on that are similar to this one in
some ways.

#6

vpfae wrote: FWIW, I don't begrudge anyone using their knowledge and
experience
as a casino video poker consultant, even if it works to my disadvantage
- which isn't a given.

        I appreciate supporting comments. But the fact remains, I have
never referred to any players as fleas. Just because one player keeps
insisting I did doesn't make him correct.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#7

HERE! HERE! VERY WELL PUT! WHATS ALL THIS NEGATIVES ON
THIS BOARD. I JUST STARTED PLAYING VP ABOUT 2YRS AGO.
FIRST TIME I PLAYED LD AND DW AT MAINSTREET I HIT SOME
SMALL DEUCES. SO I GOT HOOKED. I DIDNT KNOW HOW TO
PLAY THEM. I JUST GOT LUCKY. SO I GOT ON THE INTERNET
AND I READ ABOUT JEAN,DAN PAYMAR,BD AND SO ON. I WENT
AND BOUGHT A FRUGAL SOFTWARE SO I COULD PRACTICE. IM
MUCH BETTER NOW,BUT HAVENT CAUGHT A ROYAL YET. THE
BIGGEST JP IVE CAUGHT WAS THE 4 DEUCES AT LD. THAT WAS
IT.
WHATS THIS GOT TO DO WITH ALL THE NEGATIVE MESSAGES?
PROBABLY NOTHING! BUT SO ARE THE BICKERING IN HERE.

···

--- vpFae6128305 <vpfae6128305@Cox.net> wrote:

jw776655 wrote:

>>> His posts here have tried to make the point that
he is
simultaneously helping the casino and players. Based
on his
presentation, nothing could be farther from the
truth. <<<

jw776655 also wrote:

> The context was : Dancer explained a $1 full pay
vp machine may
> yield, for example, $30/hour to the minority of
disciplined players
> who can play perfect strategy.

> This is not desirable. However, the same machine
can be allowed to
> remain at the 25 cent level. It may yield
$7.50/hour profit to those
> players with discipline and the ability to play
perfect strategy.
> However, these are [laughing] "fleas".

I don't see anything in your report that contradicts
"His posts here
have tried to make the point that he is
simultaneously helping the
casino and players" nor do I see anything that
adequately supports
"Based on his presentation, nothing could be farther
from the truth".

Also I don't see anything particularly offensive or
inaccurate in
referring to 25c advantage players as fleas.

FWIW, I don't begrudge anyone using their knowledge
and experience
as a casino video poker consultant, even if it works
to my disadvantage
- which isn't a given. In theory, I prefer having a
guru who is a
player and a marketer of video poker products for
players, as a casino
consultant over someone who isn't a player or a
marketer. The both
sides of the fence worker/player has a much greater
vested interest in
preserving and promoting advantage plays than
someone with fewer
irons in the fire.

I'm hopeful (but not holding my breath) that
enlightened video poker
consultants may advise casinos to install and
aggressively market
positive games and thereby fill some of those empty
video poker seats.
They could use us fleas as loss leaders (winning
players to be
emulated) to greatly expand the video poker
universe, and be happy
with us fleas having a small piece of a much bigger
pie.

vpFae

__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com

#8

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "worldbefree22001" <krajewski.sa@p...>
wrote:

Anyone have a good analogy for playing both sides of the

fence here? Lawyer, doctor, consulting engineer, priest,
none of these seems to have the same dynamic as this
situation. I can't think of another situation where someone
simotaneously; advises the house, actively and agressively
tries to exploit the house and competing players, sells other
services to the house and sells products to other players
(fleas). Somehow the relationship seems wrong, but I'm not
judging just looking for a good comparison.

I have repeatedly stated on this forum that I am a low-roller (flea).

Most of my trips with my $5 blackjack wife cost us less than $1000
for five or six days and nights. Granted, we do not seek gourmet
dining or suites. As long as we get fed for our play and rooms for
our stay, I am willing to pay my airfaire and chalk the ups or downs
of the gambling to entertainment. I actually enjoy playing 500 hands
per hour per day for six or seven hours per day.

If Dancer's efforts have made the game, comps, and whole experience
for me at the expense of the "pros" more favorable, I'm totally in
favor of those types of activities.

Any individual who is willing to "work" for $7.50 per hour needs to
re-evaluate his or her agenda.

If, on occasion, opportunities present themselves where the pros can
make significant dollars per hour, God bless them.

All I'm trying to do is minimize the expenses that my annual or semi-
annual trips to Vegas cost me.

One more time, I leave behind more in tips to cocktail waitresses,
blackjack dealers, craps dealers, and the bartenders who serve me my
juice in the mornings, diet sodas in the afternoons, and cocktails in
the evenings than any theoretical loss resulting from less-than-
perfect VP play than I might get from my VP play.

I know that the billions of dollars invested by casinos do not occur
because they are in the business of subsidizing the LV VP community.
They need the fleas like me, the middle SD's of the curve to keep the
lights on. Interstingly enough, aside from the ploppies who are on
the left side of the curve, they often make more bottom line profit
from selling $12 cocktails with souvenir glasses to young 20
somethings who have not even started to think about picking up a book
by Stanford, Dan, Jean or Bob.

If their policies and procedures are intended to shut down the local
pros who are milking any mistake made dry, that is fine by me.

If Dancer's actions result in a better experience for the tourist, he
is serving his general public well and growing the potential market
for products that help people play in the casinos with as much
intelligence as can be expected.

Tom

#9

ARMS DEALER? See my recent post...

···

From: worldbefree22001 To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 2:41 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: I attended a Bob Dancer/ Fleas

Anyone have a good analogy for playing both sides of the fence here? Lawyer, doctor, consulting engineer, priest, none of these seems to have the same dynamic as this situation. I can't think of another situation where someone simotaneously; advises the house, actively and agressively tries to exploit the house and competing players, sells other services to the house and sells products to other players (fleas). Somehow the relationship seems wrong, but I'm not judging just looking for a good comparison.

#10

HERE! HERE! VERY WELL PUT! WHATS ALL THIS NEGATIVES ON
THIS BOARD. I JUST STARTED PLAYING VP ABOUT 2YRS AGO.

I agree this whole discussion is pretty chicken shit! So maybe I'm just a flea, who cares I've been called much worse.