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How to put 100% machines in casinos & do it RIGHT so casinos don't lose too much

Personally I think any casino would be smart to have a few good games - they
should have signs over them marked "100% Payback". Then on them they should
put a variety of demoninations ranging from 1 cent to $1. They should also
have a variety of games including Keno, DDB, Triple DB, Dueces, DB, etc.,
including some of the poorer games such as Triple DB or some Aces variation.

Then, don't put them next to one another. Put the 100% game next to a
similar machine without the 100%. This way the pros won't and can't play 2 games.
Also makes it harder for teams to lock up a whole area by holding machines
for one another while they go to lunch or the bathroom, or just save them for
hours waiting for a friend to come.

Also, I would put a different 100% game on each machine. #1 would have FP
dueces, #3 would have DB, #5 would have DDB, #7 would have dueces, #9 would
have DB. Etc.

Now here is what happens that is good for the casinos:
They get good publicity
They have people playing at some machines on this bank all the time, making
it look popular.
They have 100% signs bringing people over.
People who play 100% games will come to this casino - but also will bring
their friends and family who play poker, slots, or other games. They will also
recommend this casino.

The casino won't lose a lot of money because --
Teams can't lock up the bank.
People who like 100% games but play at lower demoninations will sometimes be
on the machines, not just $1 players. Sometimes Keno players or
non-knowlegeable players will also be at these machines. Sometimes even 100% players
will switch over to the non-100% games for variety. I sometimes play deuces,
then get tired and switch to DDB, and I've been known to even switch for a
short time to Triple DDB or some other game like Jokers Wild.

Now obviously this isn't the best for us players, since we like to sit next
to our friends, prefer that every machine would be 100%, and so on. But it
is a lot better than having ZERO 100% machines in a casino.

In my opinion all casinos should take this action. That way everyone is
happy (except the pros), and you could find good machines everywhere, but not go
hog wild playing them night and day the way the pros do. On a weekend trip
to Vegas, you could find a machine here and there and enjoy them.

Meanwhile the casinos total take from their bank of "good"machines is a win
- since they have people playing keno or playing bad VP, or playing good VP
poorly right next to one another and on the same machines. Sometimes the
machines are played for 1 cent, sometimes for $1.

Also, some people like to play more when they are winning (or losing), so 1
cent players may slowly go up to quarters, or even dollars -- which helps
cause them to get "gamblers ruin" during a session - and thus helps the casino's
bottom line.

Meanwhile the casino gets great publicity by having people buzzing about
"Look at the good machines," occasionally people get royals, some people are
playing $1 level and get royals or Aces with kicker, etc. for handpays - which
brings attention to the machines.

Only people like Bob Dancer and other pros are unhappy - because they have
no way of knowing for sure that they will get a particular game on a particular
visit. No teams or groups can hold a bank hostage. An expert on Deuces
may find that the only 100% machine available is DB or vice versa.

But for the average VP player on the list, at least sometimes 100% machines
would be available - better than nothing!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I like your proposal of only one positive game per machine and keeping the positive machines separate. This definitely would reduce saving machines.

misscraps@aol.com wrote: Then on them they should
put a variety of demoninations ranging from 1 cent to $1. They should also
have a variety of games including Keno, DDB, Triple DB, Dueces, DB, etc.,
including some of the poorer games such as Triple DB or some Aces variation.

Then, don't put them next to one another.
Also, I would put a different 100% game on each machine. #
They have 100% signs bringing people over.
People who play 100% games will come to this casino - but also will bring
their friends and family who play poker, slots, or other games. They will also
recommend this casino.

But for the average VP player on the list, at least sometimes 100% machines
would be available - better than nothing!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subtitled.....Why casinos will never go broke even with excellent promotions.....

The Cannery is currently running a promotion where you can earn a $15 VISA cards for $600 coin in. This is 1.25%

However you can take $1 cash back in lieu of the cards..... The slot club person told me tonight that she couldn't believe it but two people tonight took the cash instead of the VISA cards.

AS long as there are $1 FPDW (and I predict they will be gone next
month) they will be taken up by teams UNLESS the casino wants to get
really bold and put in 50+ of them. Even if they are in the men's
room, the parking lot or up ten flights of stairs they will be taken.
short of a time limit. As for 10/7 DB, they should put 100 of them on
the floor since they only return just above 98% according to my
sources. (this is due to the difficulty of the game not part of some
Larry Volk type conspiracy)

Personally I think any casino would be smart to have a few good

games - they

should have signs over them marked "100% Payback". Then on them

they should

put a variety of demoninations ranging from 1 cent to $1. They

should also

have a variety of games including Keno, DDB, Triple DB, Dueces,

DB, etc.,

including some of the poorer games such as Triple DB or some Aces

variation.

Then, don't put them next to one another. Put the 100% game next

to a

similar machine without the 100%. This way the pros won't and

can't play 2 games.

Also makes it harder for teams to lock up a whole area by holding

machines

for one another while they go to lunch or the bathroom, or just

save them for

hours waiting for a friend to come.

Also, I would put a different 100% game on each machine. #1 would

have FP

dueces, #3 would have DB, #5 would have DDB, #7 would have dueces,

#9 would

have DB. Etc.

Now here is what happens that is good for the casinos:
They get good publicity
They have people playing at some machines on this bank all the

time, making

it look popular.
They have 100% signs bringing people over.
People who play 100% games will come to this casino - but also will

bring

their friends and family who play poker, slots, or other games.

They will also

recommend this casino.

The casino won't lose a lot of money because --
Teams can't lock up the bank.
People who like 100% games but play at lower demoninations will

sometimes be

on the machines, not just $1 players. Sometimes Keno players or
non-knowlegeable players will also be at these machines. Sometimes

even 100% players

will switch over to the non-100% games for variety. I sometimes

play deuces,

then get tired and switch to DDB, and I've been known to even

switch for a

short time to Triple DDB or some other game like Jokers Wild.

Now obviously this isn't the best for us players, since we like to

sit next

to our friends, prefer that every machine would be 100%, and so

on. But it

is a lot better than having ZERO 100% machines in a casino.

In my opinion all casinos should take this action. That way

everyone is

happy (except the pros), and you could find good machines

everywhere, but not go

hog wild playing them night and day the way the pros do. On a

weekend trip

to Vegas, you could find a machine here and there and enjoy them.

Meanwhile the casinos total take from their bank of "good"machines

is a win

- since they have people playing keno or playing bad VP, or playing

good VP

poorly right next to one another and on the same machines.

Sometimes the

machines are played for 1 cent, sometimes for $1.

Also, some people like to play more when they are winning (or

losing), so 1

cent players may slowly go up to quarters, or even dollars -- which

helps

cause them to get "gamblers ruin" during a session - and thus

helps the casino's

bottom line.

Meanwhile the casino gets great publicity by having people buzzing

about

"Look at the good machines," occasionally people get royals, some

people are

playing $1 level and get royals or Aces with kicker, etc. for

handpays - which

brings attention to the machines.

Only people like Bob Dancer and other pros are unhappy - because

they have

no way of knowing for sure that they will get a particular game on

a particular

visit. No teams or groups can hold a bank hostage. An expert on

Deuces

may find that the only 100% machine available is DB or vice versa.

But for the average VP player on the list, at least sometimes 100%

machines

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, misscraps@a... wrote:

would be available - better than nothing!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Cannery is currently running a promotion where >you can earn a $15

VISA

cards for $600 coin in. This is 1.25%

Unless my math is rustier than my brain, a $15 return for $600 coin in is
2.5% :-).
                                     Nudge

···

From: "ednar" <ednar@kconline.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] dumb thing OR

casinos don't lose too much

As for 10/7 DB, they should put 100 of them on
the floor since they only return just above 98% >according to my sources.

Your sources are wrong . 10/7 DB returns 100.1725% with optimal play.
                           Nudge

···

From: "chicken2692002" <melbedewy1226@hotmail.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: How to put 100% machines in casinos & do it RIGHT so

YES. I had 1.25% on the brain from a different promotion... :slight_smile:
Guess I am pretty dumb and should just take the cash back too next time. LOL

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "nudge51" <nudge51@cox.net>

Unless my math is rustier than my brain, a $15 return for $600 coin in is
2.5% :-).
                                    Nudge

> As for 10/7 DB, they should put 100 of them on
> the floor since they only return just above 98%
> according to my sources.

On 22 Aug 2005 at 10:44, nudge51 replied:

Your sources are wrong . 10/7 DB returns 100.1725%
with optimal play. Nudge

I interpreted the 98% to refer to the casino's hold.

vpFREE Administrator

vpFREE wrote:

I interpreted the 98% to refer to the casino's hold.

A game where the casino holds 98% of wagers? Hot damn, somebody clue
Wynn in! :wink:

- H.

What my sources at the Coast chain say is that the actual return (the
way people actually play the games) is just over 98% and not the much
hyped 100.17% theoretical which only applies when the casino allows
(which will never happen) the player to use a computer at this
difficult and penalty card driven game. The truth of this can be
seen in the hundreds of $1 10/7 games and the complete lack of FPDW
in the same denomination. They will be GONE from the Wynn very
shortly because they are LOSERS for the casino while the 10/7 games
will remain all over town because they are WINNERS for the casinos.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE" <vpFREE@C...> wrote:

> > As for 10/7 DB, they should put 100 of them on
> > the floor since they only return just above 98%
> > according to my sources.

On 22 Aug 2005 at 10:44, nudge51 replied:

> Your sources are wrong . 10/7 DB returns 100.1725%
> with optimal play. Nudge

I interpreted the 98% to refer to the casino's hold.

vpFREE Administrator

I beg to disagree. Coming from JoB, DB can be learnt without
a lot of strategy adjustments, and without any adjustment a good
JoB player can play DB over 99.5%.

Playing DB without knowing anything about penalty cards yields
good results.

As far as I can tell the common penalty card situations in DB aren't
more complex than those in JoB, I'd even say that they are generally
more consistent (studying the ones I've seen in practice, all except
one seem to be simple single-card straight penalty card cases. I
might have missed some, but they must be uncommon enough that
ignoring them is unlikely to have much effect).

JBQ

···

On 8/23/05, chicken2692002 <melbedewy1226@hotmail.com> wrote:

difficult and penalty card driven game.

chicken2692002 wrote:

They will be GONE from the Wynn very shortly because they are LOSERS
for the casino while the 10/7 games will remain all over town
because they are WINNERS for the casinos.

I personally think it's questionable that 10/7 DB would be profitable
for Wynn. The property has a LOT more overhead and operating expenses
to cover. He needs a higher hold than the barn-like locals operations.

The question is whether the more clueless Strip tourists will give up
enough ER vs. the locals players to bridge the gap. I have my doubts.
(There's also the question of whether the canabilization of play away
from lower ER machines wouldn't more than offset profit from new
players attracted by FPDB).

I'm sure FPDB has been considered by other major casinos operators but
shied away from since they consider even NSUD to be a marginal money
maker in some cases. Witness that Coast casinos removed much $1 10/7
DB for awhile while assuring themselves it wasn't a loser for the
house during their inventory restructuring over the last 2 years.

- Harry

If the return is only 98% , why did they take all the 1$ FPDB out of
the Suncoast and other coast casinos ???

wrote:

What my sources at the Coast chain say is that the actual return

(the

way people actually play the games) is just over 98% and not the

much

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "chicken2692002" <melbedewy1226@h...>

hyped 100.17% theoretical which only applies when the casino allows
(which will never happen) the player to use a computer at this
difficult and penalty card driven game. The truth of this can be
seen in the hundreds of $1 10/7 games and the complete lack of FPDW
in the same denomination. They will be GONE from the Wynn very
shortly because they are LOSERS for the casino while the 10/7 games
will remain all over town because they are WINNERS for the casinos.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE" <vpFREE@C...> wrote:
> > > As for 10/7 DB, they should put 100 of them on
> > > the floor since they only return just above 98%
> > > according to my sources.
>
>
> On 22 Aug 2005 at 10:44, nudge51 replied:
>
> > Your sources are wrong . 10/7 DB returns 100.1725%
> > with optimal play. Nudge
>
> I interpreted the 98% to refer to the casino's hold.
>
> vpFREE Administrator

Because IGT started documenting the computer perfect play return,
casino employees naturally assume the IGT number is the expected
performance on the floor, as it would be in the case of slots where
play strategy has no effect on the return.

FPDB is "positive" according to IGT and casinos are afraid to put any
"positive" machine on the floor. For a casino, 99% is loose, 100%+
(positive) is stupidity. What they don't realize is that IGT's number
on FPDB is incorrect on the floor.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "al55442" <al55442@c...> wrote:

If the return is only 98% , why did they take all the 1$ FPDB out of
the Suncoast and other coast casinos ???

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "chicken2692002" <melbedewy1226@h...>
wrote:
> What my sources at the Coast chain say is that the actual return
(the
> way people actually play the games) is just over 98% and not the
much
> hyped 100.17% theoretical which only applies when the casino allows
> (which will never happen) the player to use a computer at this
> difficult and penalty card driven game. The truth of this can be
> seen in the hundreds of $1 10/7 games and the complete lack of FPDW
> in the same denomination. They will be GONE from the Wynn very
> shortly because they are LOSERS for the casino while the 10/7 games
> will remain all over town because they are WINNERS for the casinos.
>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE" <vpFREE@C...> wrote:
> > > > As for 10/7 DB, they should put 100 of them on
> > > > the floor since they only return just above 98%
> > > > according to my sources.
> >
> >
> > On 22 Aug 2005 at 10:44, nudge51 replied:
> >
> > > Your sources are wrong . 10/7 DB returns 100.1725%
> > > with optimal play. Nudge
> >
> > I interpreted the 98% to refer to the casino's hold.
> >
> > vpFREE Administrator

nightoftheiguana2000 wrote:

Because IGT started documenting the computer perfect play return,
casino employees naturally assume the IGT number is the expected
performance on the floor, as it would be in the case of slots where
play strategy has no effect on the return.

I have the strong impression that IGT not only notes the theoretical
"perfect play" game return in their literature but also the actual
payout range typically realized on the casino floor. I don't give
casino staff a ton of credit for being at the top of their game, but I
figure slot managers can comprehend this basic info correctly.

I think they also comprehend that when there's a "positive" ER game on
the floor it's much more likely to get heavy skilled play than a
"negative" ER game.

- Harry

IGT also provides sheets to casinos with expected actual holds for
each game. For example, they tell customers that 10/7 DB holds 2 -
3%. These are the numbers that most casinos use. So the slot
departments rely on those numbers, not the theoretical max. These
numbers are, in some cases, reasonably accurate. In others they are
wildly overstated.

The slot directors DO know what the potential is. But the best ones
factor in many things to determine whether to keep a particular game;
the worst ones don't really understand what's happening and overreact
to irrelevant events.

But your premise that they don't know the difference between minimum
and expected holds is simply not true, IGT provides both numbers.

B

···

At 03:50 PM 8/23/2005, you wrote:

Because IGT started documenting the computer perfect play return,
casino employees naturally assume the IGT number is the expected
performance on the floor, as it would be in the case of slots where
play strategy has no effect on the return.

FPDB is "positive" according to IGT and casinos are afraid to put any
"positive" machine on the floor. For a casino, 99% is loose, 100%+
(positive) is stupidity. What they don't realize is that IGT's number
on FPDB is incorrect on the floor.

— In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "al55442" <al55442@c…> wrote:
> If the return is only 98% , why did they take all the 1$ FPDB out of
> the Suncoast and other coast casinos ???
>
>
> — In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "chicken2692002" <melbedewy1226@h…>
> wrote:
> > What my sources at the Coast chain say is that the actual return
> (the
> > way people actually play the games) is just over 98% and not the
> much
> > hyped 100.17% theoretical which only applies when the casino allows
> > (which will never happen) the player to use a computer at this
> > difficult and penalty card driven game. The truth of this can be
> > seen in the hundreds of $1 10/7 games and the complete lack of FPDW
> > in the same denomination. They will be GONE from the Wynn very
> > shortly because they are LOSERS for the casino while the 10/7 games
> > will remain all over town because they are WINNERS for the casinos.
> >
> >
> > — In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE" <vpFREE@C…> wrote:
> > > > > As for 10/7 DB, they should put 100 of them on
> > > > > the floor since they only return just above 98%
> > > > > according to my sources.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 22 Aug 2005 at 10:44, nudge51 replied:
> > >
> > > > Your sources are wrong . 10/7 DB returns 100.1725%
> > > > with optimal play. Nudge
> > >
> > > I interpreted the 98% to refer to the casino's hold.
> > >
> > > vpFREE Administrator

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

several times i've seen techs go from machine to machine checking
paytables against a book, the book lists perfect play return

also the machines themselves report perfect play return in an option
table readable when opened ("keyed")

and of course in the ideal world (from the standpoint of casinos),
only 90% return games would be offered, just as the ideal world of car
dealers would offer no cashback incentives and wholesale prices only

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...> wrote:

nightoftheiguana2000 wrote:
> Because IGT started documenting the computer perfect play return,
> casino employees naturally assume the IGT number is the expected
> performance on the floor, as it would be in the case of slots where
> play strategy has no effect on the return.

I have the strong impression that IGT not only notes the theoretical
"perfect play" game return in their literature but also the actual
payout range typically realized on the casino floor. I don't give
casino staff a ton of credit for being at the top of their game, but I
figure slot managers can comprehend this basic info correctly.

I think they also comprehend that when there's a "positive" ER game on
the floor it's much more likely to get heavy skilled play than a
"negative" ER game.

- Harry

nightoftheiguana2000 wrote:

several times i've seen techs go from machine to machine checking
paytables against a book, the book lists perfect play return

also the machines themselves report perfect play return in an option
table readable when opened ("keyed")

Yes, the various paytables are referenced in IGT docs and on the
internal machine menus by their perfect play returns. It's a
shorthand reference. That hardly means that the slot managers don't
recognize the difference between those and the expected hold numbers
that IGT documents for the casinos.

- H.

So what does IGT tell the casino?

This is from an IGT par sheet.

Double Bonus
1-1-3-5-7-10-50-80-160-50-250-(800)
%RANGE: 96.2 - 98.2%
OPTIMUM: 100.2%
HIT FREQUENCY: 43.3%

On this same par sheet it shows this pay schedule and return.
1-1-3-5-6-9-50-80-160-50-250-(800)
OPTIMUM: 97.4%

I found 5 errors on one par sheet.

5-card

Yes, that's exactly what that means.

Most slot managers and techs are not gamblers, otherwise they would be
disqualified or questioned for the job.

When they see 100.2% they assume that means "positive" and generally
"positive" machines are to be eliminated when found, unless one wants
to risk ones employment record.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...> wrote:

nightoftheiguana2000 wrote:
> several times i've seen techs go from machine to machine checking
> paytables against a book, the book lists perfect play return
>
> also the machines themselves report perfect play return in an option
> table readable when opened ("keyed")

Yes, the various paytables are referenced in IGT docs and on the
internal machine menus by their perfect play returns. It's a
shorthand reference. That hardly means that the slot managers don't
recognize the difference between those and the expected hold numbers
that IGT documents for the casinos.

- H.