vpFREE2 Forums

How many VP games can one master?

#1

Background:

For a while I was entirely focusing my VP efforts on 9/6 JoB
(primarily with 800RF, I've looked a bit at 250RF and so far haven't
considered 940RF yet). I believe that I was a fairly decent player,
reliably playing very close to an optimal strategy.

Spending some time hanging around here I figured that it might make
sense to look at games with a better ER (not that I think that ER is
the only thing that matters, but that's another topic that's been
discussed already). I decided to look at full-coin FPDW, practiced it
on-and-off for the last couple of weeks, and I think that I can now
play a basic strategy without making too many mistakes. I am having a
hard time learning the more advanced details of the game, though.

This morning I started to think about preparing a gambling trip, one
during which satisfying my goal would involve playing 9/6 JoB. I
discovered with horror that all my recent FPDW practice had seriously
damaged my JoB abilities, at least in the short term, definitely
forcing me to think hard about each hand. After a couple of hundred
hands I started to be able to play "by instinct" much faster, but
still not at fast as I used to.

My questions:

-How many VP games can someone hope to master well (let's say,
reliably playing them all within 0.05% of the max ER)?

-How much time does it take to switch from one game to another and get
"in the zone" again?

-Given that I manage JoB and FPDW, and assuming that I want to learn a
third game, would DB be a reasonable candidate?

Thanks,
JBQ

#2

-How many VP games can someone hope to master well (let's say,
reliably playing them all within 0.05% of the max ER)?

-How much time does it take to switch from one game to another and get
"in the zone" again?

The answer to your first two questions will vary from
individual to individual.

I regularly play JoB, NSUD and DB very proficiently
and sometimes play all three on the same day. I
occasionally play an hour or so on my computer to
make sure I'm playing correctly.

-Given that I manage JoB and FPDW, and assuming that I want to learn a
third game, would DB be a reasonable candidate?

It would be in Las Vegas.

vpFREE Administrator

···

On 25 Jun 2005 at 18:35, Jean-Baptiste Queru wrote:

#3

I usually vary my play between the following...
9/6 jb; 8/5 bonus; Pick-Em; KBJW; FPDW; NSUD; FP Bonus Deuces; and 10/7 DB.
I may not play them all perfectly but I don't get bored too often.
It usually takes me about 15 minutes maximum to adjust to a game switch, after that I get up to speed.
The only game that I dabble in that I don't feel really half decent at is AA .

DB would be a reasonable candidate but it is a complicated strategy, but if you like playing it go for it.
The easiest game to learn perfectly is Pick-Em.

Regards
A.P.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Jean-Baptiste Queru
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 9:35 PM
  Subject: [vpFREE] How many VP games can one master?

  Background:

  For a while I was entirely focusing my VP efforts on 9/6 JoB
  (primarily with 800RF, I've looked a bit at 250RF and so far haven't
  considered 940RF yet). I believe that I was a fairly decent player,
  reliably playing very close to an optimal strategy.

  My questions:

  -How many VP games can someone hope to master well (let's say,
  reliably playing them all within 0.05% of the max ER)?

  -How much time does it take to switch from one game to another and get
  "in the zone" again?

  -Given that I manage JoB and FPDW, and assuming that I want to learn a
  third game, would DB be a reasonable candidate?

  Thanks,
  JBQ

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#4

Thanks for the advice.

Wow, yeah, I had a look at a "simple" strategy for DB, definitely not
that simple, and too similar to JoB, I'll have a hard time remembering
the differences between them (I don't play enough to justify learning
the details).

PKM definitely looks interesting, and it's different enough from JoB
or FPDW that I might be able to learn it.

Our administrator's comment about DB in LV made me look through the
database. PKM seems to be pretty popular in Reno/Tahoe, and I'm more
likely to gamble there than in LV.

Thanks again for opening my eyes.

JBQ

···

On 6/25/05, Albert Pearson <a-p@sympatico.ca> wrote:

I usually vary my play between the following...
9/6 jb; 8/5 bonus; Pick-Em; KBJW; FPDW; NSUD; FP Bonus Deuces; and 10/7 DB.
I may not play them all perfectly but I don't get bored too often.
It usually takes me about 15 minutes maximum to adjust to a game switch, after that I get up to speed.
The only game that I dabble in that I don't feel really half decent at is AA .

DB would be a reasonable candidate but it is a complicated strategy, but if you like playing it go for it.
The easiest game to learn perfectly is Pick-Em.

Regards
A.P.
----- Original Message -----
  From: Jean-Baptiste Queru
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 9:35 PM
  Subject: [vpFREE] How many VP games can one master?

  Background:

  For a while I was entirely focusing my VP efforts on 9/6 JoB
  (primarily with 800RF, I've looked a bit at 250RF and so far haven't
  considered 940RF yet). I believe that I was a fairly decent player,
  reliably playing very close to an optimal strategy.

  My questions:

  -How many VP games can someone hope to master well (let's say,
  reliably playing them all within 0.05% of the max ER)?

  -How much time does it take to switch from one game to another and get
  "in the zone" again?

  -Given that I manage JoB and FPDW, and assuming that I want to learn a
  third game, would DB be a reasonable candidate?

  Thanks,
  JBQ

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#5

PE is a relatively simple game to learn. My brain is not as agile as some
other vp players, but I find myself playing in multiple regions with
different games and conditions that I have to attempt to adjust to. Having
an understanding of only one game doesn't cut it, but this is the real world
and my time is not infinite, so there are choices and often compromises to
make. Recently I took a first trip to Tunica and had to figure out what the
best game would be for me down there. Jokers seemed obvious best game in
terms of EV and variance, but I had no experience and feared the time
involved in the learning curve. Because of my familiarity with JB and DDB I
chose the more volatile Super Aces. I could learn it faster. If I get down
to Tunica on a regular basis, I will expend the time to learn the joker
game. The key for me is planning (having a good idea of the game you will
be playing in the near future), practice (those games you will be playing in
the near future) and keeping the strategy as simple as is reasonable.

Chandler

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com]On Behalf Of
Jean-Baptiste Queru
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 1:56 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] How many VP games can one master?

Thanks for the advice.

Wow, yeah, I had a look at a "simple" strategy for DB, definitely not
that simple, and too similar to JoB, I'll have a hard time remembering
the differences between them (I don't play enough to justify learning
the details).

PKM definitely looks interesting, and it's different enough from JoB
or FPDW that I might be able to learn it.

Our administrator's comment about DB in LV made me look through the
database. PKM seems to be pretty popular in Reno/Tahoe, and I'm more
likely to gamble there than in LV.

Thanks again for opening my eyes.

JBQ

On 6/25/05, Albert Pearson <a-p@sympatico.ca> wrote:

I usually vary my play between the following...
9/6 jb; 8/5 bonus; Pick-Em; KBJW; FPDW; NSUD; FP Bonus Deuces; and 10/7

DB.

I may not play them all perfectly but I don't get bored too often.
It usually takes me about 15 minutes maximum to adjust to a game switch,

after that I get up to speed.

The only game that I dabble in that I don't feel really half decent at is

AA .

DB would be a reasonable candidate but it is a complicated strategy, but

if you like playing it go for it.

The easiest game to learn perfectly is Pick-Em.

Regards
A.P.
----- Original Message -----
  From: Jean-Baptiste Queru
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 9:35 PM
  Subject: [vpFREE] How many VP games can one master?

  Background:

  For a while I was entirely focusing my VP efforts on 9/6 JoB
  (primarily with 800RF, I've looked a bit at 250RF and so far haven't
  considered 940RF yet). I believe that I was a fairly decent player,
  reliably playing very close to an optimal strategy.

  My questions:

  -How many VP games can someone hope to master well (let's say,
  reliably playing them all within 0.05% of the max ER)?

  -How much time does it take to switch from one game to another and get
  "in the zone" again?

  -Given that I manage JoB and FPDW, and assuming that I want to learn a
  third game, would DB be a reasonable candidate?

  Thanks,
  JBQ

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#6

Hi Jean-Baptiste

Welcome to the board! It's always nice to read fresh viewpoints.

I believe that the answer to your question is dependent on the
amount of time that you are willing to devote to practicing on your
software.

In my case, I devote a huge portion of the time that I'm "just
sitting" watching (listening) to TV or radio, or a talking book, or
flying, or sometimes even during a quiet period in my office, to
practicing ALL the VP games that I play with some regularity.

During the 2 weeks immediately prior to a vp trip, I really hit the
laptop just to insure that the strategies are still fresh in my
mind.

The games I play often, in a casino, in order of frequency, are:
FPKBJW, FPDW, DTD (if I'm in downtown LV) DDB, DB, BP, JOB. I do
try to switch from one basic JOB bonus game to another, rather than
back and forth between JOB type games & wild games. When I'm doing
that kind of switch, I try to take a break between sessions.

On my laptop, I switch from one game to another frequently, and
have, at one time or another, heavily practiced every game on BDWP,
in addition to the "cloned" games where I have adjusted the payoffs
to conform to games such as "Downtown Deuces". I have played
millions of hands this way, and have rarely found my accuracy to be
less than 99%+, even immediately after changing games. I do check my
accuracy quite frequently, to make sure that I'm not making too many
errors.

I am a rec player only. I play for the fun and excitement I derive
from the game. This pleasure has in no way diminished over the many
years I've been playing vp. I doubt that I would still be as
fascinated by VP if I had to limit myself to one or two similiar
games. It is the DIFFERENCE in the strategies, that holds my
interest. The whipped cream on the cake, is that, over 25 years, I
have a winning record.

As to your 3rd question, DB with it's myriad of penalty cards, is a
very difficult game to master. IMO, even tougher than JW. But if
you're up to the challenge, go for it!

I wish you the best of luck in whichever games you play.

Babe

···

------------------------------------------------------------
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Jean-Baptiste Queru <jbqueru@g..wrote:

How many VP games can someone hope to master well (let's say,
reliably playing them all within 0.05% of the max ER)?

How much time does it take to switch from one game to another and
get "in the zone" again?

Given that I manage JoB and FPDW, and assuming that I want to learn
a third game, would DB be a reasonable candidate?

Thanks,
JBQ

#7

<<How many VP games can someone hope to master well (let's say,
reliably playing them all within 0.05% of the max ER)?>>

I think this is one reason why Skip's strategy cards and the Frugal VP software are being chosen by more and more people, even by frequent and professional players. Both of these give simplified strategies that do not take into consideration penalty cards, but cost you very little in EV. This allows most players to learn more different games -which is becoming more and more a need for advantage players.

Of course, you can practice in the "Perfect" mode on FVP if you wish, instead of the simplified "Strategy" mode - you have a choice. Some players like the challenge of playing as "perfectly" as possible. And some high-denomination players are playing with such a small edge, that they feel they need to squeeze out as much EV as possible. Personally, I would rather limit my choices to plays with enough EV that I have a pretty good edge already without having to go to the 2nd or 3rd decimal place where penalty cards might make a difference. I believe that most people will play a simplified strategy more accurately than a "perfect" one. And, most importantly, in most cases, slot club and promotion benefits make up a good part of the EV of a total play; therefore, you can probably play faster (without sacrificing accuracy) with a simplified strategy and increase those extra benefits and gain a lot more with those extra benefits than you are losing in ignoring penalty-card situations. As Skip says so often, your time is probably spent better in scouting for better playing opportunities than by trying to learn every little penalty card play!

Personally, when Brad and I started playing VP 14 years ago, we learned JoB from Lenny Frome's strategy charts, which were simplified with no penalty cards. But then we switched to FPDW and gradually learned the penalty card situations for that because we played almost no other game for many years - and therefore could concentrate on that one game. When we went up to dollars, we switched our "core" game to DB and since we played that so much for so many years, we learned Dancer's professional strategy with the penalty card situations.

Once FVP came out, I use it exclusively for a non-penalty-card strategy when learning a new game, especially if it is one I don't plan to play very often. I especially like a simplified strategy when making up charts for Multi-Strike - since that game is already hard enough to play, switching among 4 strategies constantly, that I do not want to worry about penalty cards (except when I use basic strategy and I already know those penalty-card situations.)

One hint for those who want to learn, for whatever reason, the "perfect" strategy for a very difficult game, like DB. First of all, Dancer's Winner's Guide booklets, give you the details you need to master one game. Then, you might want to study only one penalty-card situation at a time, only picking up the next one when you have played a long time and have that first one down pat so it is second nature.

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards.
  NEW - Blackjack Strategy Cards +
              Updated Second Edition of
             "The Frugal Gambler."

#8

Thank you Jean for the nice and detailed reply.

I generally agree with you on the notion that trying to play a
"perfect strategy", while mathematically accurate, isn't necessarily
the best choice. Looking at different games and their "perfect"
strategy, it certainly looks like some games have a reasonably "easy"
"perfect" strategy (JoB comes to mind), and some don't (DB and FPDW
are two examples I'm somewhat familiar with).

I personally don't mind learning a few penalty cards. I guess that
traning on software that stops my play when I don't make a perfect
play is a good incentive, and since it looks like my brain manages to
learn them reasonably well I'm trying to remember a few of them. But I
currently most certainly ignore the most advanced cases (e.g. I play
2RF, K high, no deuce in FPDW with a basic penalty-card rule and I
don't want to learn the exact details - kudos to those who manage to
remember them).

Multi-strike is an interesting case indeed. From the little that I've
been able to read about it, it seems like a simple strategy for the
first few levels combined with a goos strategy for the last level (and
the free rides) can sometimes yield a better ER than a perfect
strategy on a single-line game, though the actual increase seems to
vary a lot between games.

With all those nice replies, I'm starting to get a better feel for the
games which I think I should be able to learn reasonably well. Thanks
everyone for all the feedback.

JBQ

#9

Because I seek to play progressives and at only high levels (over
101.5%), I get to play almost every conceivable pay schedule that
exists. Therefore, I carry strategy cards for almost every game and
on occasion must refer to them. Small mistakes occur, but as the
overall EV is so high, they are relatively meaningless..
If you play a game with a EV close to break even (100.17%, etc), it is
important to be as accurate as possible, and it is almost impossible
to be perfect, but high EV's give you some "error" space.

···

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:48:41 -0700, you wrote:

Thank you Jean for the nice and detailed reply.

I generally agree with you on the notion that trying to play a
"perfect strategy", while mathematically accurate, isn't necessarily
the best choice. Looking at different games and their "perfect"
strategy, it certainly looks like some games have a reasonably "easy"
"perfect" strategy (JoB comes to mind), and some don't (DB and FPDW
are two examples I'm somewhat familiar with).

I personally don't mind learning a few penalty cards. I guess that
traning on software that stops my play when I don't make a perfect
play is a good incentive, and since it looks like my brain manages to
learn them reasonably well I'm trying to remember a few of them. But I
currently most certainly ignore the most advanced cases (e.g. I play
2RF, K high, no deuce in FPDW with a basic penalty-card rule and I
don't want to learn the exact details - kudos to those who manage to
remember them).

Multi-strike is an interesting case indeed. From the little that I've
been able to read about it, it seems like a simple strategy for the
first few levels combined with a goos strategy for the last level (and
the free rides) can sometimes yield a better ER than a perfect
strategy on a single-line game, though the actual increase seems to
vary a lot between games.

With all those nice replies, I'm starting to get a better feel for the
games which I think I should be able to learn reasonably well. Thanks
everyone for all the feedback.

JBQ

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#10

Interesting.

Ah, the neverending discussion of whether strategy cards are a
"device" according to NRS 465.075. I'd have thought they weren't, but
since regulation 5.150 lists "handwritten notes" as an exception to
465.075 (only allowable for baccarat and roulette) you can never be
too sure.

Personally, I'm a chicken when it comes to such matters and I prefer
to stay on the safe side of the law. Having to worry about whether
strategy cards are legal and trying to keep them concealed would ruin
the experience for me. IANAL. YMMV. Plus, in my personal case I don't
play enough to be able to worry about the actual effect of a slight
difference in EV compared to the volatility of the game.

Oh well, I think that we can reasonably assume that brains are still
legal *grin*.

Regards,
JBQ

···

On 6/27/05, Elliott L. Shapiro <elliotts2345@earthlink.net> wrote:

I carry strategy cards for almost every game and
on occasion must refer to them.

#11

But, amazingly, brains are not "legal" if you "count" at blackjack. LOL

.....bl

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Jean-Baptiste Queru <jbqueru@g...>
wrote:

···

Oh well, I think that we can reasonably assume that brains are still
legal *grin*.

Regards,
JBQ

#12

From which point of view? NRS 465.075 "device to assist in keeping
track of cards played", or some other law/regulation?

Heck, in VP you can use your eyes to keep track of which 5 cards have
already been played!

Bah, going further, choosing the right cards in VP "alter(s) the
method of selection which determine(s) the amount or frequency of
payment in a game". Therefore it could be considered "cheating"
according to NRS 465.015.

LOL, reading the law can be really funny sometimes.

JBQ

···

On 6/27/05, bornloser1537 <bornloser1537@yahoo.com> wrote:

But, amazingly, brains are not "legal" if you "count" at blackjack. LOL

#13

Jean,

Loved your new book and especially the princess perspective. Thanks for all your help.

Paul

···

Jean Scott <QueenofComps@frugalgambler.biz> wrote:
<<How many VP games can someone hope to master well (let's say,
reliably playing them all within 0.05% of the max ER)?>>

I think this is one reason why Skip's strategy cards and the Frugal VP
software are being chosen by more and more people, even by frequent and
professional players. Both of these give simplified strategies that do not
take into consideration penalty cards, but cost you very little in EV. This
allows most players to learn more different games -which is becoming more
and more a need for advantage players ...

#14

Jean-Baptiste Queru wrote:

Interesting.

Ah, the neverending discussion of whether strategy cards are a
"device" according to NRS 465.075.

  Neverending discussion?

···

--
Thanks!
Skip
http://www.vpinsider.com

#15

I'm sorry, but that is utter nonsense. Card counting is completely
legal. It is also completely legal in Nevada for casinos to toss
out card counters (or anyone else whose face they simply dislike).

···

On Monday 27 June 2005 12:32 pm, bornloser1537 wrote:

But, amazingly, brains are not "legal" if you "count" at blackjack. LOL

#16

LOL.

What good is knowing that you are legal, if you are thrown out and cannot
"count", i.e., "use your brain"?

Oh, yes! You certainly are not fined or go to jail. I guess that is a welcome
relief!

Thanks for the clarification.

.....bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Steve Jacobs <jacobs@x> wrote:

On Monday 27 June 2005 12:32 pm, bornloser1537 wrote:
> But, amazingly, brains are not "legal" if you "count" at blackjack. LOL

I'm sorry, but that is utter nonsense. Card counting is completely
legal. It is also completely legal in Nevada for casinos to toss
out card counters (or anyone else whose face they simply dislike).

#17

Background:

For a while I was entirely focusing my VP efforts on 9/6 JoB
(primarily with 800RF, I've looked a bit at 250RF and so far haven't
considered 940RF yet). I believe that I was a fairly decent player,
reliably playing very close to an optimal strategy.

> > -Given that I manage JoB and FPDW, and assuming that I want to

learn a

third game, would DB be a reasonable candidate?

Thanks,
JBQ

JOB is an execllent place to start because you can "tweak" the
stratergy to fit other games such as DB ,SDB, such as keeping 2 aces if
you have 2 pair,3 aces from a fh, inside straights with at least 2 high
cards,

I start with the 99.47 sratergy from wizard of odds web site & adj from
there, there was a great article from may 2004?? strictly slots mag
that compared different statergies used on different games such as JOB
stratergy for DB SDB DDB ,FPDW for NSUD etc & a list of all games avail
with payback %, go to casinocenter.com & maybe a back issue availble

ALSO , free statergy info for NSUD on VPhomepage.com, look under
samples, THANKS SKIP!!
Strictly Slots has had stratergy charts for LDW & Super Aces the last
few months THANKS AGAIN SKIP!!!!!!

AND wizard of odds now has stratergy chart for PICK EM
M J

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Jean-Baptiste Queru <jbqueru@g...> wrote: