vpFREE2 Forums

"Hidden" Plays

#1

I got an email from a vpFREE friend the other day. Both the member and the casino mentioned shall remain anonymous for reasons which will soon become apparent.

But for purposes of this post, let's assume the casino is Harrahs LV.

In posts and in emails I have stated "Harrahs LV" (for example) is basically unplayable. On many visits I have searched high and low, and my findings have pretty much been consistent with what we have seen in the database. A few single line High Limit games, not much else.

And I'm a fairly thorough guy, by the way.

But then comes the email.

And I am basically told (after a 100% true comment about my diligence being questionable) exactly where there are at least 15 machines all with playable games. I was even given machine numbers. And I know from past experience my friend's information is EXTREMELY reliable.

But, gosh - 15 of them! That makes the score HIDDEN 15, Database 0.

Though I haven't been out to check (I did 4th of July in Vegas once and learned that 90 degrees is not normal for me at 10PM) I felt a little befuddled. While grateful my friend was so cooperative and sharing, I wonder about all those other "hidden" opportunities I've missed.

I discovered one of these myself at Palazzo before the point system was trashed. 9/6 Jacks on a 5-Play Multi-Strike. Never mentioned until I reported it in the database. And long gone now.

Clearly, some of these plays are inconspicuous. One bartop at the entire bar, and only certain games on it at certain denominations.

But I wonder if the vpFREE forum is a bit conflicted. People want information, and some share it generously. But others cling to hidden plays as if they should and would never be discovered. Take, but not give.

I'm glad my "more diligent" friend doesn't think that way.

#2

There is a reason these types of plays are not openly shared. Do you think the casino purposely makes one denomination of one game on one machine in an entire bank playable on purpose? These are clearly mistakes on the part of the casino. Posting a play such as that would be a terrible idea for several reasons:

1)The machine will be played all the time (assuming it is a good enough play), so even if it got posted and you found out through vpFree, you'd never get a chance to play it anyway.

2)The increased play on that specific machine and people waiting to play that specific machine could draw the suspicion of the casino to correct the error.

3)Not everyone on this site can be trusted. For example, if a player sees a play listed on vpFree that doesn't interest him/her (i.e. due to bankroll requirements, low $/hr compared to what they consider worthwhile, or an inconvenient location), he/she may contact the casino and for a fee as a consultant advise them of their exposure due to the play.

4)Most intelligent casinos monitor vpFree, so by posting the play, especially with the machine #, you've done all the work for them to spot their mistakes (Not only for single machine paytable mistakes, but also for promotional mistakes such as a casino with good paytables running good promotions which create big-time positive situations).

This brings up another point, and that is sharing of high $/hr opportunities in general (Sunshine Policy). I think there should be a threshold of what gets shared (I would say $20/hr, some will probably argue that # but that is the level where I would consider plays to still be "readily" available). Everything above that, barring a huge mistake by the casino, isn't going to playable for most people that post/read this forum anyway due to bankroll requirements. Why share that information with everyone if only few can use it positively and risk the casino being tipped off? The players that can really use the info are professionals, and many of them probably already know about the play through their own hard work of traveling the country scouting out plays or by word of mouth from a friend. So what are we really gaining by posting this info? The answer is nothing; only the casinos benefit.

I do also agree with mikey though that there are those that simply lurk, waiting for the next big play to pop up on vpFree. These people are lazy; they can't get out and find their own plays. So why give them the satisfaction of what they are looking for by posting info for them to use and abuse?

-V

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mikeymic" <mikeymic@...> wrote:

But I wonder if the vpFREE forum is a bit conflicted. People want information, and some share it generously. But others cling to hidden plays as if they should and would never be discovered. Take, but not give.

I'm glad my "more diligent" friend doesn't think that way.

#3

I only play JW 100.65 or 101.00. I appreciate knowing
which casinos offer this with info provided by this group. This game is an excellent cash opportunity for me as a visitor not able to take advantage of the locals welfare mailers.(Not like the 1003+% deals of the past)I share what I find as a visitor while I am in town on other plays that I do not take advantage of.
My point is, basic full pay machine info disclosed here is no big deal. The Casinos already offer it for competitive reasons. Good plays come and go. I love the updates!!
Mistakes are another matter. I found one last trip. $2000 score(yeah). Would I disclose it on an open forum? Not a chance!

Jim Mason

#4

This is a good post. They ought to make it sticky or add it to the FAQ or something. These are some serious topics you bring up. I, of course, am grateful for what I have learned from vpfree and I too have lurked longer than I have posted. It's an odd situation, I am happy it was here for me to learn, but now I wish it was gone so others can't learn. Of course, that cannot happen, and should not happen. But we could agree to some limitations on what we post. If someone posts that they discovered a secret $1 FPDW at Monte Carlo (ha, joking) then maybe the Moderator could zap it before the suits see it. I dunno, but it seems like something needs to be done.

-BB

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "v_p_player" <v_p_player@...> wrote:

There is a reason these types of plays are not openly shared. Do you think the casino purposely makes one denomination of one game on one machine in an entire bank playable on purpose? These are clearly mistakes on the part of the casino. Posting a play such as that would be a terrible idea for several reasons:

1)The machine will be played all the time (assuming it is a good enough play), so even if it got posted and you found out through vpFree, you'd never get a chance to play it anyway.

2)The increased play on that specific machine and people waiting to play that specific machine could draw the suspicion of the casino to correct the error.

3)Not everyone on this site can be trusted. For example, if a player sees a play listed on vpFree that doesn't interest him/her (i.e. due to bankroll requirements, low $/hr compared to what they consider worthwhile, or an inconvenient location), he/she may contact the casino and for a fee as a consultant advise them of their exposure due to the play.

4)Most intelligent casinos monitor vpFree, so by posting the play, especially with the machine #, you've done all the work for them to spot their mistakes (Not only for single machine paytable mistakes, but also for promotional mistakes such as a casino with good paytables running good promotions which create big-time positive situations).

This brings up another point, and that is sharing of high $/hr opportunities in general (Sunshine Policy). I think there should be a threshold of what gets shared (I would say $20/hr, some will probably argue that # but that is the level where I would consider plays to still be "readily" available). Everything above that, barring a huge mistake by the casino, isn't going to playable for most people that post/read this forum anyway due to bankroll requirements. Why share that information with everyone if only few can use it positively and risk the casino being tipped off? The players that can really use the info are professionals, and many of them probably already know about the play through their own hard work of traveling the country scouting out plays or by word of mouth from a friend. So what are we really gaining by posting this info? The answer is nothing; only the casinos benefit.

I do also agree with mikey though that there are those that simply lurk, waiting for the next big play to pop up on vpFree. These people are lazy; they can't get out and find their own plays. So why give them the satisfaction of what they are looking for by posting info for them to use and abuse?

-V

#5

(snip, and BTW, Bravo!)

In my vast experience, and this is in conflict with the so-called "Sunshine Policy", the people that benefit most from outing plays on VPFree are the ones who wouldn't ever ever give anything in return, even at gunpoint.

They're just going to take the info and burn it down. NEXT!!!!

Now, to be fair, Admin, presumably in their experience, sees it differently, but if I am correct as to Admin's identity, they really don't play very much at all anymore, and they're pretty much tethered to Vegas.

You have to understand this deal from my (well worn) shoes for a moment. When you put the amount of miles that I do, and it's quite a healthy amount both on the Interstate and in the air, when I find something, you better believe I'm not just going to give it away. It's not a personal thing at all, it's my business, your hobby, and if you understood how lucrative this deal once was before the public got wind of it, then maybe you can understand the concept where I'm not a charity (neither is the casino, BTW).

VPFree has cost me a ton of money over the years, and inevitably, IMHO, they will kill pretty much profitable VP overall. When this happens, I will likely go back to my day job (while also lucrative, not nearly as much fun) and retire in a few years. Invariably, and I saw this happening with blackjack, the amateurs think it's easy to be a pro, have neither any understanding nor respect of what it takes to be successful at this, and end up not doing a whole lot more than wising up the house, or helping the burnout artists burn the play down. Frankly, I'm not interested in discussing the social utility of being a VP pro. For that matter, I'm not interested at all in discussing the social utility of most poster's day jobs. Fair enough?

Yeah, a lot of folks, including one writer/publisher who I like otherwise (and please, the next time some married couple gives me the "we're just recreational players" line, I'm going to hit both of them), would really prefer to have the game drive to their house. Good luck.

Now, I'm willing to offer discards, and give advice when asked. I've also made a number of corrections in the database nationwide (and unlike a couple of my professional brethren, the corrections were true! Lololol!).

But if you see something really strong...just play it and enjoy the fact you have the best of it. It's really that simple. Even if it's something the casino knows it's offering. Frequently, slots and marketing get their wires crossed. It's not your responsibility to uncross those wires for them.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "v_p_player" <v_p_player@...> wrote:

#6

Do you think this could have been avoided somehow? How do you "keep the genie in the bottle", so to say? (serious question)

Thanks,
BB

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "paladingamingllc" <paladingamingllc@...> wrote:

VPFree has cost me a ton of money over the years, and inevitably, IMHO, they will kill pretty much profitable VP overall.

#7

I can understand, and empathize with your opinions expressed below. Yes, VP has become considerably more "tight" than it used to be. But this is not the first time something like this has happened, and I'm quite certain it will not be the last. On Wall St. many investment systems existed for years, and until they became publicized and jumped on by everyone, were very profitable. The January Effect, Dogs of the Dow, Sell in May and Go Away, the Nifty Fifty come readily to mind.

For a number of years in the '70's especially, betting pro football could be just as lucrative, maybe more so than the "early days" of VP. Before widespread use of computers, there were any number of solid systems that could be gleaned from dedicated studies of years & years of past results. These systems yielded 75% & better results, 99.5 % of them betting against the public (and perceived wisdom). But that went away and those of us who were able to capitalize on it enjoyed it while it was available. And then moved on.

Whenever the "public", the "masses", the "crowd" becomes aware of something, inevitably it will turn around and become a losing scheme. So the only options are to either give it up, or just enjoy VP for the entertainment value, factoring in the bennies & perks that casinos are willing to throw in along the way. If I'm happy to have a 3-4 day expenses paid vacation, see a show or two, and have the chance of hitting a royal or some bonus quads, for the same price (or if you get lucky, much much less than) what you'd pay to go to some resort, where your only possible "extra" is a case of sunburn, well then, so be it.

Personally, I enjoy the give-and-take of the groups, the occasional nugget of good inside info, and most especially the hard work of the folks who try to make VPFree a source of solid information on the most playable machines around.

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________________________________

when I find something, you better believe I'm not just going to give it away. It's not a personal thing at all, it's my business, your hobby, and if you understood how lucrative this deal once was before the public got wind of it, then maybe you can understand the concept where I'm not a charity (neither is the casino, BTW).

VPFree has cost me a ton of money over the years, and inevitably, IMHO, they will kill pretty much profitable VP overall.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#8

You can't..the reality is if it wasn't, say, Bob Dancer, Jean Scott, Skip Hughes (nothing personal Skip, just business, get well soon), Anthony Curtis, it would be another group of people. Bob's always been a special case, he doesn't want to be the foremost pro, he wants to be the only one. In terms of AP operators, the only one who really approaches my class is Bob.

The other harsh reality, and again, it flies in the face of the Sunshine Policy, is that VP isn't a team sport (unless of course you're running a team lol). Now, I'll always root for people I don't even like against the casino (except on team plays), but individual plays have value and sharing them usually costs you in the end. I can offer numerous case studies.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "paladingamingllc" <paladingamingllc@> wrote:
>

>
> VPFree has cost me a ton of money over the years, and inevitably, IMHO, they will kill pretty much profitable VP overall.

Do you think this could have been avoided somehow? How do you "keep the genie in the bottle", so to say? (serious question)

#9

I'll echo this from personal experience. A few years ago I would share casino mistakes but I no longer do so. I openly share general information. If a whole bank of machines suddenly has a sign posted above them advertising 100% payback sure I'll share. On the other hand if I find a single machine with an obvious paytable mistake I'm keeping it to myself :slight_smile:

Once the "light bulb came on" it was clear as night and day. Some plays are so obviously mistakes that it's beyond any doubt.

On a related topic -- regarding the difference between "recreational" players and pros. I don't count on my play to pay the bills, but I know that some do and I respect that. I recognize there's a difference, and I do "play for fun". However, pushing buttons and watching cards flip up on a screen isn't my definition of "fun". Winning money, earning comps, coming out ahead? Yeah, that's fun.

Mac
www.CasnoCamper.com

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "paladingamingllc" <paladingamingllc@...> wrote:

... individual plays have value and sharing them usually costs you in the end. I can offer numerous case studies.