vpFREE2 Forums

Here we go again?

3e. Re: Here we go again?
Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:13 pm ((PST))

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Luke Fuller" wrote:
>
> Why does the variance changes in multi-line, depending on the
> denomination per line?
>
> Or, to put it another way....
>
> Why is the variance different if I play 5 cent 100-line vs.
> $1 5-line vs. $5 1-line? Either way, it's $25 per pull.
>
> Or, maybe, I misunderstood?
>
>

You need to understand the concept of covariance. Because so many
hands share the same deal and only the draw is separate, it
increases total variance vs a game where every deal and draw is a
separate event. A single play FPJB game has a variance of a bit
over 19, as I recall. The same game in hundred play has a variance
of something like 214. See the Jazbo or Wizard of Odds links to N
Play discussions.

OK, now I'M the one confused. It's been way too many years since I had my statistics courses to remember the difference between variance and co-variance (and giving me the formulas won't educate me anymore).

Please help me with "plain english" -- the $1 5-play vs the $5 single-line game, for example -- it's my understanding that if I'm putting the same money at risk per "pull", the multi-line game will give me less peaks and valleys, with the same long-term expectation per dollar risked.

Is that correct, or does the higher variance (described above, eg, 19 vs 214 for single vs 100-play), mean I'm wrong?

Thanks!

--BG

···

=================

> 3e. Re: Here we go again?
> Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:13 pm ((PST))
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Luke Fuller" wrote:
> >
> > Why does the variance changes in multi-line, depending on the
> > denomination per line?
> >
> > Or, to put it another way....
> >
> > Why is the variance different if I play 5 cent 100-line vs.
> > $1 5-line vs. $5 1-line? Either way, it's $25 per pull.
> >
> > Or, maybe, I misunderstood?
> >
> >
>
> You need to understand the concept of covariance. Because so

many

> hands share the same deal and only the draw is separate, it
> increases total variance vs a game where every deal and draw is

a

> separate event. A single play FPJB game has a variance of a bit
> over 19, as I recall. The same game in hundred play has a

variance

> of something like 214. See the Jazbo or Wizard of Odds links to

N

> Play discussions.
>

OK, now I'M the one confused. It's been way too many years since

I had my statistics courses to remember the difference between
variance and co-variance (and giving me the formulas won't educate
me anymore).

Please help me with "plain english" -- the $1 5-play vs the $5

single-line game, for example -- it's my understanding that if I'm
putting the same money at risk per "pull", the multi-line game will
give me less peaks and valleys, with the same long-term expectation
per dollar risked.

Is that correct, or does the higher variance (described above, eg,

19 vs 214 for single vs 100-play), mean I'm wrong?

Thanks!

--BG

=================

As Harry, MrOE and others have said, when you take that same coin in
per hand there is a reduction in BR swings in n play which has one
deal and many draws vs single play which has one deal and one draw.
N play can divide one possible result into many with the same CI per
deal. It would be a high compliment to describe my grasp of
statistics as tenuous, but I usually have a firm grasp of common
sense. In other words, it would be a mistake to assume that a
reasonable bankroll for dollar single play video poker would be the
same for dollar n play. A big mistake.

Chandler

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, b.glazer@... wrote:

Left a sentence off of my complete post.

Likewise, that same reasonable bankroll for a dollar single play might
be overly adequate (or have a smaller ror) when utilized to play 20
play nickels or 100 play pennies of the same game.

Chandler

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "cmayhem2001" <chandler_re@...> wrote:

As Harry, MrOE and others have said, when you take that same coin in
per hand there is a reduction in BR swings in n play which has one
deal and many draws vs single play which has one deal and one draw.
N play can divide one possible result into many with the same CI per
deal. It would be a high compliment to describe my grasp of
statistics as tenuous, but I usually have a firm grasp of common
sense. In other words, it would be a mistake to assume that a
reasonable bankroll for dollar single play video poker would be the
same for dollar n play. A big mistake.

Chandler

b.glazer wrote:

OK, now I'M the one confused. It's been way too many years since I
had my statistics courses to remember the difference between variance
and co-variance (and giving me the formulas won't educate me
anymore).

Please help me with "plain english" -- the $1 5-play vs the $5
single-line game, for example -- it's my understanding that if I'm
putting the same money at risk per "pull", the multi-line game will
give me less peaks and valleys, with the same long-term expectation
per dollar risked.

Is that correct, or does the higher variance (described above, eg, 19
vs 214 for single vs 100-play), mean I'm wrong?

Re your first comment: It's not necessary to remember the fine points
of the distinction. Just understand, if you wish, that co-variance is
a contributor to the total variance of multi-line play and is a
consequence of the fact that there are multiple hand outcomes on the
draw related to the same dealt hand.

Your "plain english" statement in the second paragraph is exactly on
the nose. The seeming discrepancy that seems to lie in the greater
variance of 100-play is a matter of understanding the units involved
(similar, to an extent, to the fact that 90 cm isn't necessarily
greater than 30 in simply because the number is bigger).

The variance numbers are best understood as measured in betting units,
squared, where the multiplay variance is an aggregate that treats each
individual line played as a unique bet. If the multiplay value were
expressed instead as variance per single whole bet, than the 100-play
value would be 2.14.

So, let's consider the case of $1 single line vs. $.01 100-play.
Measured in alternative units that reflect the entire wager of $5 in
each case, the ratio of respective variance would be 19:2.1 (or about
8x higher for the single line wager).

Variance, like length, can be expressed in various units. For
convention's sake (to ensure that there's no question of the units)
the numbers are expressed in terms of "base" bet units.

···

------

I want to add a final comment to this discussion -- it's tempting to
translate the relationship between variance from one game to another
into a direct indication of relative magnitude of the gain/loss
exposure one faces in play of the respective plays. This can't be
done -- relative variance is only a general guide to relative loss risk.

Variance, as a mathematical measure, best describes the range of
outcomes for an event that has a true "normal" distribution (e.g. the
flipping of a penny or roll of a die). Because the measure of payback
from vp hands assigns a different weight to each hand outcome,
short-term variance does not adhere to a "normal" distribution.
However, over a large number of hands (typically referred to as the
"long term"), the distribution takes on a shape that closely
approximates a normal distribution.

The bottom line is this: Shorter to Medium term play results (say,
for example, 100 thousand plays) have a range of outcomes that doesn't
reflect a normal distribution. Therefore, for those purposes,
variance isn't a reliable measure of related loss risk (but generally
still good for a gut sense of relative risk). Over the long term,
variance is much more reliable.

One example to illustrate where variance is entirely misleading where
it comes to session bankroll risk: pick'em has a MUCH lower variance
vs. JB (or any other standard vp game). However, experienced pick'em
players know that you better be packing a good number of extra bucks
to have the same survivability in a session as you might playing JB at
the same denomination.

- Harry

Yes, here we go again and again...

Variance, as a mathematical measure, best describes the range of
outcomes for an event that has a true "normal" distribution (e.g. the
flipping of a penny or roll of a die).

Neither the flipping of a penny nor the roll of a die produces a "normal" distribution of
outcomes (normal meaning gaussian or bell-curve). Not even close. Both should produce
even distributions (discrete even distributions).

If you summed the output of multiple rolls, or multiple die, as the number things you
summed increases, the distribution would begin to look more "normal". In that case, the
standard deviation would go as 1/sqrt(N) where N is the number of rolls you summed up,
since there is NO correlation between die.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

cdfsrule wrote:

Yes, here we go again and again...

Harry Porterwrote:
> Variance, as a mathematical measure, best describes the range of
> outcomes for an event that has a true "normal" distribution (e.g.
> the flipping of a penny or roll of a die).

Neither the flipping of a penny nor the roll of a die produces a
"normal" distribution of outcomes (normal meaning gaussian or
bell-curve). Not even close. Both should produce even distributions
(discrete even distributions).

If you summed the output of multiple rolls, or multiple die, as the
number things you summed increases, the distribution would begin to
look more "normal". In that case, the standard deviation would go as
1/sqrt(N) where N is the number of rolls you summed up, since there
is NO correlation between die.

Yes, perhaps, here we go again (and again) ...

Unless I'm mistaken, it would seem that my wording wasn't precise
enough for you (or, to be more specific, that in an atypical manner I
spared a few too many words and made erred by presuming that what was
missing would be inferred).

You're absolutely correct, if you chart the distribution of heads vs.
tails in multiple flips of a coin, you'd expect an even distribution
... that is, the number of each should be roughly even. This can also
be referred to as a discrete uniform distribution (I had to look that
one up).

What I had in mind was the distribution of the cumulative number of
observed heads (or tails) as the number of flips increases. But once
again, I'm imprecise in describing this as a normal distribution ...
for the term "normal distribution" describes a continuous probability
distribution -- were the distribution of head tosses truly a normal
distribution (rather than a discrete distribution), then there would
be a probability assigned for an event such as 5.363 heads being observed.

To be more accurate, I should have said that the two examples were
discrete distributions that approximate a normal distribution (to
again make the distinction in my post that vp results, instead, do not).

Now, certainly this more accurately presents the information (although
I have no doubt that if you're inclined to do so, you can still point
to some inaccuracies). My suspicion, however, is that most here would
prefer that you not encourage me in going on at such length when it
doesn't really add much clarity to my original point (as far as the
vpFREE rank and file go).

- H.