vpFREE2 Forums

Harry's "Sucker Bet" comment revisited

#1

harry porter stated: "I'll address one other aspect of chungs post --
he implies that IGT is offering up a sucker bet to the unaware player.
Far from it."

I have no idea where harry gets the basis for his assertion that I
implied it was a sucker bet. From the wizard of odd's website, the
wizard writes: "According to the rule screen, the multiplier appears
once every 15 games and the average multiplier is 4.05. So the average
win after the multiplier is 20.33% more, making the sixth coin a
marginally good bet." Cleary, this is a "marginally" good bet as
opposed to a sucker bet or Harry's assertion holds no water.

My comments were about the game design and structure. Again, it should
be clear the 6th coin is not a sucker based on aforementioned
paragraph. I already stated the game design was IMO a scam because (a)
sum certain loss upfront versus sum uncertain gain in the future and
(b) the expected return is based on the fact the player hits his fair
share of hands such as 10X on dealt royal (and by extension, (N)X's on
other dealt hands as well).

I will now address another aspect of the "scam" from a game design
perspective. When the player is paying a "6th" coin, the value of
existing wins is neutered by 20% (i.e. the difference of a winning hand
being pay for 5 coins and now being paid for 6 coins). This effect IS
INDEPENDENT of the previous arguments of sum certain loss versus sum
uncertain gain, etc. When you hit a full house in a 9/6 JOB game
without the X-times bonus, you would get 45 coins or 9 for 1. Now, in
the STP structure, that same 45 coin award for full house is NOW over 6
coins or 7.5 for 1. This is a game design issue, which is separate
from an EV issue (hence Harry's sucker bet comment). In the same vien,
if you hit a RF without the X-times bonus, the RF DID NOT pay 800 for
1, it paid 666.66 (truncated) for 1. There are other game design
issues as well which when COMBINED help explain the about 42% JUMP in
standard deviation observed by the wizard of odds.

I didn't want to get into this type of detail on this type of message
board as this stuff is generally discussed on other message boards.
This a message board clearly has a primary focu on EV, game return,
etc.

In summary, please don't be like Harry Porter and put words in my
mouth. In this industry, "a sucker bet" is clearly a huge money-losing
bet, and STP is the opposite of that.

#2

I should have given an example so people can see where I am coming from
with respect to game design / game structure. Assuming I had access to
the proper patents, I can take a 9/6 JOB game and give it STP-like
bonus. So rather than the multiplier up to 10X, I limit the multipler
to only 2X or 3X. Also, there is no rule that says that ALL the times
should enjoy the multiplier. I could do it such that the machine
randomly chooses one line, two lines, etc to receive the multipler,
respectively.

So, basically, you are playing N-Play 9/6 JOB (without the 6th coin
feature) and the machine randomly gives you 2X or 3X on one or more
lines at random. What this does, the return on the game increases AND
the standard deviation increases marginally like by 5% or 10% as
opposed to about 42%. So basically, this game structure will give
compare returns under STP without the need for sizeable incremental
variance. Futher proof I never IMPLIED it was a sucker bet.

Again, this stuff is openly discussed on another message board. I am
taking the time to prevent future comments like the one Harry made.

I am now going back into lurker mode because a lot of this stuff is
highly sensitive.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "chungsterama" <chungsty@...> wrote:

I didn't want to get into this type of detail on this type of message
board as this stuff is generally discussed on other message boards.
This a message board clearly has a primary focu on EV, game return,
etc.

#3

What is the other message board where this type of stuff in discused

> I didn't want to get into this type of detail on this type of

message

> board as this stuff is generally discussed on other message

boards.

> This a message board clearly has a primary focu on EV, game

return,

> etc.

I should have given an example so people can see where I am coming

from

with respect to game design / game structure. Assuming I had

access to

the proper patents, I can take a 9/6 JOB game and give it STP-like
bonus. So rather than the multiplier up to 10X, I limit the

multipler

to only 2X or 3X. Also, there is no rule that says that ALL the

times

should enjoy the multiplier. I could do it such that the machine
randomly chooses one line, two lines, etc to receive the multipler,
respectively.

So, basically, you are playing N-Play 9/6 JOB (without the 6th coin
feature) and the machine randomly gives you 2X or 3X on one or more
lines at random. What this does, the return on the game increases

AND

the standard deviation increases marginally like by 5% or 10% as
opposed to about 42%. So basically, this game structure will give
compare returns under STP without the need for sizeable incremental
variance. Futher proof I never IMPLIED it was a sucker bet.

Again, this stuff is openly discussed on another message board. I

am

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "chungsterama" <chungsty@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "chungsterama" <chungsty@> wrote:
taking the time to prevent future comments like the one Harry made.

I am now going back into lurker mode because a lot of this stuff is
highly sensitive.

#4

chungsterama wrote:

I will now address another aspect of the "scam" from a game design
perspective ...

In summary, please don't be like Harry Porter and put words in my
mouth. In this industry, "a sucker bet" is clearly a huge money-losing
bet, and STP is the opposite of that.

Admittedly, I inaccurately substituted "sucker bet" for what you
described as a "scam". Just understand that in my book anyone who
would bet on a "scam" is placing a "sucker bet".

Having said that, substituting back the word "scam" for my use of the
phrase "sucker bet", I stand by my original post:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/message/91023

- Harry