vpFREE2 Forums

Harrahs "comped" Airfare

#1

I'd accummulated close to $400 in Harrahs Total Rewards. Some from
playing on special "6x" day at Harrahs Reno (FP $1 JOB), many from the
conversion of Caesars LV.

I just booked my next flight from San Francisco to Philadelphia for
$300 of comps. Only hitch was that I had to go to the casino itself;
not sure I could have set up the flight purchase by phone. But what a
great deal. I'd thought I'd have to give up something in order to
convert these comps to real money. But in this case, I'm actually
getting a plane flight for LESS than I'd pay using real money.

Stuart (RandomStu)
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/mypage.htm

#2

It actually cost you less than $300 in real value! I
tried to make the point on the Harrahs Group Site that the
flight offer for 30,000 reward credits can be one of the best
or worst use of reward credits. You gave an example of real
value. Unfortunately, if your choice was San Francisco to
Reno, the cost would still be 30,000 reward credits and
probably a poor use of credits I consider the true value
of rewards credits equal to the cash equivalent of Simon
Visa Gift cards. This is primary because all other uses
of reward credits are either not needed, such as rooms and
meals, or over priced, such as in their in the "Reward Menu"
catalog! This includes the monthly sale items. Your flight
purchase is an exception and congratulation on a good
choice! If you purchase a $500 card the cost is 67,500
credits. This makes 100 reward credits real value equal to
$.74. In your specific case, you could have purchased a
$250 gift card for 35,800 reward credits making 100 reward
credits equal to $.69 and had 3,200 credits remaining.
40,000 reward credits are worth $276 in cash, or $296 if
you can accumulate 67,500 before converting. So, at the
most, your flight cost $222 cash equivalent dollars.
  Also in those posts, I tried to make the point that this
method should be used to value the free trip (trip for 2)
given to Harrahs 7* card holder each year. I had to double
the cost of 30,000 credits to 60,000 to equal the 7* trip's
value (2 people). The value was $600 since Harrahs says
this is the value. Harrahs will fly a 7*, and their guest,
to any Harrahs destination for free (up to a $600 maximum).
I guess it is just pride that force them to believe this
is worth $600. This stance was maintained in spite of the
fact that Harrahs will also fly 2 people to the SAME
destination as the 7*'s trip of choice for 60,000 reward
credits. I would guess that both parties groups could be
on the same flight! Enforcement of the $600 limit has
been question, but this is not relevant to valuation.
  The main point WAS that the true value of this benefit
is not $600 or more, but simply the same as the cost of a
flight for any card holder to the same destination. I grant
that you need to have reward credits to make the trip, but
for a 7* member this should be no problem. Related to this
last sentence is the fact that there are not many other
valuable uses for reward credits! Reward credits have
little value other than for the RIGHT flight or Simon Visa
Gift Cards. Thus, the value of an annual 7* can be worth
no more than $444 as previously determined!
  I get all the free room and food offers that I can use and
I am not a 7* holder, but merely a regular Harrahs diamond
card member. If a 7* member takes a shorter annual trip,
like the San Francisco to Reno example, than the value of
the annual trip to a 7* member is significantly less than
$600 and so is the cost significantly worst for the other
card holders converting reward credits for a flight. I tried
to demonstrate my point with an expensive flight such as
San Francisco to Atlantic City, but the only logic mustered
up was that they probably would not go to Atlantic City.
The example was for concept only. The simple example either
was not be comprehended, or the response was unbelievable!
I really was not trying to deny value of this 7* benefit.
My play could approach the 7* level, but I would have to
divert some risk/reward gambling dollars from other casinos
that provide me more benefits than the difference between 7*
and Diamond. Thus, the interest in accurately
valuing all 7* benefits (including this annual trip for two.
  Again great use of reward credits and maybe some from the
other group will see this post and your example of the proper
use of reward credits and help them value their 7* trip.

  I'd accummulated close to $400 in Harrahs Total Rewards. Some
from playing on special "6x" day at Harrahs Reno (FP $1 JOB), many
from the conversion of Caesars LV.
  I just booked my next flight from San Francisco to Philadelphia
for $300 of comps. Only hitch was that I had to go to the casino
itself; not sure I could have set up the flight purchase by phone.
But what a great deal. I'd thought I'd have to give up something
in order to convert these comps to real money. But in this case,
I'm actually getting a plane flight for LESS than I'd pay using

real

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Stuart" <sresnick2@...> wrote:

money.
Stuart (RandomStu)
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/mypage.htm

#3

<< It actually cost you less than $300 in real value! I
tried to make the point on the Harrahs Group Site that the
flight offer for 30,000 reward credits can be one of the best
or worst use of reward credits. You gave an example of real value. >>

Excellent post. In my upcoming VP book, I talk about how to value comps realistically. One has to be brutally frank with himself when he adds comp value to arrive at the EV (ER) of a VP play. I'm afraid too many people are "cheating" to call a play over 100%!!! And then they wonder why they are long-term losers.

We just made 7 Star and haven't got our benefits package yet. Whom do you call to make the reservations for the free flight for two? Or, must you do it in person at the slot club desk?

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott
New book coming this summer
"FRUGAL VIDEO POKER"
http://www.FrugalGambler.biz

#4

We booked our 7 Stars trip through our host at our "dominant" property, which in our case is Ballys AC. You provide them with the dates you want to travel and the hotel you wish to stay in. We chose to go NY to RENO, they comped our airfare which was over $900 for two people. You get the confirmation in the mail from the travel agency Harrahs uses. You DO NOT have a choice of airlines or times. We did request America West and got that but I imagine if they could have found a less expensive flight with another airline they would have used them. The hotel can be up to 7 nights. A host from the Reno property called is within 2 weeks of booking our trip. He "upgraded" our room, made reservations for dinner, and bus excursion for the "dawn patrol" ballooning, etc.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Jean Scott
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 4:04 PM
  Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Harrahs "comped" Airfare

  << It actually cost you less than $300 in real value! I
  tried to make the point on the Harrahs Group Site that the
  flight offer for 30,000 reward credits can be one of the best
  or worst use of reward credits. You gave an example of real value. >>

  Excellent post. In my upcoming VP book, I talk about how to value comps
  realistically. One has to be brutally frank with himself when he adds comp
  value to arrive at the EV (ER) of a VP play. I'm afraid too many people are
  "cheating" to call a play over 100%!!! And then they wonder why they are
  long-term losers.

  We just made 7 Star and haven't got our benefits package yet. Whom do you
  call to make the reservations for the free flight for two? Or, must you do
  it in person at the slot club desk?
  ________________________________________
  Jean $¢ott
  New book coming this summer
  "FRUGAL VIDEO POKER"
  http://www.FrugalGambler.biz

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#5

<<We booked our 7 Stars trip through our host at our "dominant" property, which in our case is Ballys AC. You provide them with the dates you want to travel and the hotel you wish to stay in. >>

Can you book just the air and say that you will make your own room reservations later?

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott
New book coming this summer
"FRUGAL VIDEO POKER"
http://www.FrugalGambler.biz

#6

Don't know because we did not try to do it that way. Your host should be able to tell you!

  <<We booked our 7 Stars trip through our host at our "dominant" property,
  which in our case is Ballys AC. You provide them with the dates you want to
  travel and the hotel you wish to stay in. >>

  Can you book just the air and say that you will make your own room
  reservations later?

···

________________________________________
  Jean $¢ott
  New book coming this summer
  "FRUGAL VIDEO POKER"
  http://www.FrugalGambler.biz

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#7

<<The main point WAS that the true value of this benefit is not $600 or
more, but simply the same as the cost of a flight for any card holder to the
same destination. I grant that you need to have reward credits to make the
trip, but for a 7* member this should be no problem. Related to this last
sentence is the fact that there are not many other valuable uses for reward
credits! Reward credits have little value other than for the RIGHT flight
or Simon Visa Gift Cards. Thus, the value of an annual 7* can be worth no
more than $444 as previously determined! >>

1) 60,000 credits are worth $444
2) 60,000 credits can buy a flight for two
3) THEREFORE all flights for two are worth $444

1) Solomon is wise
2) Solomon is a man
3) THEREFORE all men are wise

Cogno

#8

Is this sarcasm or confusion? For clarity, ALL flights for 2 to
ANY Harrahs destination are ONLY worth 60,000 reward credits. As
stated in "rculver" post, his 7* flight's actual cost was over $900.
So All flights are not worth $444 in non reward credit value. I
personally calculate the cash equivalent of 60,000 points at $444.
This amount becomes the most value I need to pay for a flight for
two people to any Harrahs destination.
  My point is that it is not realistic to value the 7* flight
benefit any higher than 60,000 reward credits. Harrahs pays for
the complete flight for any 2 card member for 60,000 reward credits.
Incidentally, only does a 7* member need to possible worry about
a possible $600 limitation. The persons who used 60,000 reward
credits for the same flight do not need to be concerned about ANY
limit. Once gain, the benefit can be worth no more than the value
of 60,000 reward credits! What value do you give 60,000 reward
credits?
  As Jean said, you need to realistically value comps or reward
credits. I personally value 60,000 reward credits at their cash
equivalent value which is $444. As stated earlier, this is because
I do not need to use them for rooms or food and I find their "Reward
Menu" catalog significantly over retail prices even when items are
on sale. Any gift shop purchases are usually rare and small for
the same reason as the "Reward Menu" catalog.
  I do pay for an occasional meal with reward credits. However,
I usually get more reward credits on a visit than I, and my guests,
can use for food that day. This is because I am usually playing on
multiplier days. For example, my last visit was a 10X day. On
that day, I received 2500 credits for swiping my card. I earned
2,600 tier credits and 6,390 bonus credits for a total of 34,870
reward credits. Are these worth $348.70? I do not think so. I
value at $.74 per 100, or $258. If they do away with Simon Gift
Cards this will be a more difficult analysis. Do you think the
comps earned that day are realistically worth $348.70? They can
be worth more if you can, or better yet need, to use them for the
a long airline flight!
  As Jean said, one should realistically value any comp or gift.
My only purpose was to fairly price the free 7* flight benefit for
two. I was not saying it was not a nice comp. Each benefit a
7* card holder receives should be realistically valued. Obviously,
each will place a different values on some of those benefits.
However, the free flight is one that can be measured.
  Again, what realistic value do you give to 60,000 reward credits?

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Cogno Scienti" <cognoscienti@...>
wrote:

<<The main point WAS that the true value of this benefit is not

$600 or more, but simply the same as the cost of a flight for any
card holder to the same destination. I grant that you need to have
reward credits to make the trip, but for a 7* member this should be
no problem. Related to this last sentence is the fact that there are
not many other valuable uses for reward credits! Reward credits have
little value other than for the RIGHT flight or Simon Visa Gift
Cards. Thus, the value of an annual 7* can be worth no more than
$444 as previously determined!

···

1) 60,000 credits are worth $444
2) 60,000 credits can buy a flight for two
3) THEREFORE all flights for two are worth $444

1) Solomon is wise
2) Solomon is a man
3) THEREFORE all men are wise

Cogno

#9

<< My point is that it is not realistic to value the 7* flight benefit any
higher than 60,000 reward credits. Harrahs pays for the complete flight for
any 2 card member for 60,000 reward credits. >>

Agreed.

<<Once gain, the benefit can be worth no more than the value of 60,000
reward credits! What value do you give 60,000 reward credits?>>

If they are buying me a flight that I would otherwise have paid for myself
and would have paid $1200, then $1200.

<<I personally value 60,000 reward credits at their cash equivalent value
which is $444. >>

That would only be true if you could not use them for something more
valuable than $444.

Cogno

#10

Once gain, the benefit can be worth no more than the value of
60,000 reward credits! What value do you give 60,000 reward
credits?

"Cogno Scienti" <cognoscienti@...> wrote:

If they are buying me a flight that I would otherwise have paid for
myself and would have paid $1200, then $1200.

We may be mixing and confusing two different questions here. In both
questions, we're assuming our hero is a Diamond player with a finite
number of excess Total Reward points, looking for ways to spend them
wisely.

The first question is whether a Diamond player should use points to
buy a plane ticket. The original poster is saying (if I may be so
bold as to translate) that the only other worthwhile way to spend the
points is on gift cards. So when calculating whether or not to use
the TR points to buy a flight, the logic is: if you DON'T buy the
flight, you'd have 30K points that'd buy $222 worth of gift cards.
It's therefore rationally correct to buy the flight if the
alternative is to pay over $222 in real money for it.

The 2nd question involves whether a Diamond player should put in the
extra play required for 7* status for the sake of the 2 free flights
that come with it. So a key question becomes: do you already have
enough points to buy all the flights you need with them?

Say that you DON'T have that many points. That means that in some
situations you end up paying real money for flights. If one of those
real money flights cost you $1200 (one 2-person round trip at
$600/person), then the value of 7* is $1200, since it will give you
that 2-person flight for free instead of $1200.

Say that you DO have so many points that you always pay points for
whatever flights you want. In that case, you NEVER pay $1200 for a
flight, but rather 60,000 TR points. Then you attain 7*, so you get
the flight for free instead of 60,000 points. What will you do with
those 60,000 points? You've already got all the flights you want. So
you have to spend them on gift cards, which are worth $444. So in
this case, the value of the 7* benefit is $444 to you.

While one can spend any reasonable amount of gift cards, there are
only so many plane flights that one needs or wants to use. Are you
satiated with plane flights? If you are, then that 7* benefit
is worth $444 to you. If you're not satiated, it's worth $1200.

The profound meaning behind this is that people tend to think of
things as having inherent value. But they don't; they have value only
in relationship to our desires.

Stuart
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/mypage.htm

#11

I am the main 3rd party involved in this discussion. Please follow
my responses in the body of your posts.

>>Once gain, the benefit can be worth no more than the value of
>>60,000 reward credits! What value do you give 60,000 reward
>>credits?

"Cogno Scienti" <cognoscienti@> wrote:
> If they are buying me a flight that I would otherwise have paid

for myself and would have paid $1200, then $1200.

-----"You are assuming one would have no reward credits available
to purchase a flight. Many examples use are not realistic because
of how easy it is to earn reward credits. I cannot imagine a 7*
member, or any diamond member approaching and looking at the
benefits of 7* not having an enormous number of reward credits.
I have just over 30,000 tier points and had over 250,000 reward
credits before purchasing 3 $500 Simon Visa cards."

We may be mixing and confusing two different questions here. In

both questions, we're assuming our hero is a Diamond player with a
finite number of excess Total Reward points, looking for ways to
spend them wisely.

The first question is whether a Diamond player should use points to
buy a plane ticket. The original poster is saying (if I may be so
bold as to translate) that the only other worthwhile way to spend

the points is on gift cards. So when calculating whether or not to
use the TR points to buy a flight, the logic is: if you DON'T buy the

flight, you'd have 30K points that'd buy $222 worth of gift cards.
It's therefore rationally correct to buy the flight if the
alternative is to pay over $222 in real money for it.

-----"I would be interested in hearing about any significant use
and value for reward credits other than flights and Simon Visa
Cards (cash). Of course this is personal, but I do not see
any many logical uses for a significant number of reward credits
other than for travel and Visa cards and occasionally some food."

The 2nd question involves whether a Diamond player should put in

the extra play required for 7* status for the sake of the 2 free
flights that come with it. So a key question becomes: do you already
have enough points to buy all the flights you need with them?

> Say that you DON'T have that many points. That means that in some
situations you end up paying real money for flights. If one of

those real money flights cost you $1200 (one 2-person round trip at

$600/person), then the value of 7* is $1200, since it will give you
that 2-person flight for free instead of $1200.

-----"It is a real stretch to say a 7* member does not have 60,000
reward credits. I am sure they have many, many multiples of 60,000
reward credits by the time they reach 7* status. So yes, your
answer is valid. However, I think the premise upon which your
answer is base is not realistic."

Say that you DO have so many points that you always pay points for
whatever flights you want. In that case, you NEVER pay $1200 for a
flight, but rather 60,000 TR points. Then you attain 7*, so you get
the flight for free instead of 60,000 points. What will you do with
those 60,000 points? You've already got all the flights you want.

So you have to spend them on gift cards, which are worth $444. So in

this case, the value of the 7* benefit is $444 to you.

"I contend this is the norm and is basic to my position. I would
like to hear of any 7* player that does not have hundred of
thousand of reward credits. After all your get 100,000 just from
tier points alone! In the games I play I earn about 2.45 bonus
points for every tier point earned. That does account for all the
swipes, promotions, drawings and multiplier days that are always
giving me addional reward credits."

While one can spend any reasonable amount of gift cards, there are
only so many plane flights that one needs or wants to use. Are you
satiated with plane flights? If you are, then that 7* benefit
is worth $444 to you. If you're not satiated, it's worth $1200.
> The profound meaning behind this is that people tend to think of
things as having inherent value. But they don't; they have value

only > in relationship to our desires.

"Again, I agree, but I have a hard time picturing your example of
a 7* having a problem with not enough reward credits. Many of my
positions are based upon logical thinking and that always assumed
a lot of reward credits must exit in each 7* account. I know they
would in my account if I ever approached that level. Maybe they
coverted them all to Simon Visa Cards?"

Stuart
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/mypage.htm

Thanks to both of you for contributions to this discussion.

Bob

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Stuart" <sresnick2@...> wrote:

#12

Even though I use my RCs for Simon Visa cards, I've always thought that I might like to save up my RCs to purchase something that money simply can't buy. I don't remember the number of RCs needed, but the Rio promotes some interesting high-end uses such as having the Chippendale's perform at your private party or being given individual golf lessons by a named celebrity golfer or being given private cooking lessons by a celebrity chef.
   
  Lainie

···

futrend <futrend@yahoo.com> wrote:
  -----"I would be interested in hearing about any significant use
and value for reward credits other than flights and Simon Visa
Cards (cash). Of course this is personal, but I do not see
any many logical uses for a significant number of reward credits
other than for travel and Visa cards and occasionally some food."

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