In a message dated 5/10/2003 7:12:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
geneb3355@yahoo.com writes:
Comps are "don't ask, don't tell" and are supposedly 3%
of your theoretical loss. The slot club reps estimated that
about 30 points might give $1 in comps, but they didn't sound
very confident or convincing.
3% can't be right. 30% is typical, give or take. The "normal" range is 25% to
40% of theo.
Brian
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This all depends on what you're looking for in the way of a comp. If I were a host there and a local came to me for a meal at AJ's, I'd probably deny it barring extreme play. I called Thursday and asked for a room next Sat. night, was denied & referred to the famous 'casino rate', argued sensibly, and got it comped. This is in addition to the 2 free weekday nights I have coming on an offer. I have no theoretical loss because I won. I'd say hit them up as quickly as possible while they are in a state of confusion.
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> Comps are "don't ask, don't tell" and are supposedly 3%
> of your theoretical loss. The slot club reps estimated that
> about 30 points might give $1 in comps, but they didn't sound
> very confident or convincing.
>
3% can't be right. 30% is typical, give or take. The "normal" range is 25% to
40% of theo.
Brian
I have no theoretical loss because I won.
Rob, I'm not sure you understand the concept of theoretical loss.
Theoretical means that it's based on a forumula for what machine you
are playing. It doesn't matter if you win or lose.
Some places base comps on actual losses, at least partially. But
that's a different matter.
Sal
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Singer" <rsinger1111@c...> wrote:
So if the machine I was playing was positive, I'd never get a comp unless I lost--is that what you're saying? I've never seen that before.
I've found most comps are subjective--sort of like dealing with the DMV. Come across as if they owe you something, and you'll be less than satisfied when you leave. Maybe computing theoretical loss is how they treat locals, but visitors have a wider range of options.
----- Original Message -----
From: Sally
Rob, I'm not sure you understand the concept of theoretical loss.
Theoretical means that it's based on a forumula for what machine you
are playing. It doesn't matter if you win or lose.
Some places base comps on actual losses, at least partially. But
that's a different matter.
Sal
Here is some hard data about the current Hard
Rock situation.
I played the NSUD prog for about $4500 coin in
yesterday. I received $11 cb, so the 0.25% CB
is correct. I asked about the new comp account.
I was told that I had a grand total of TWO WHOLE
DOLLARS. This is bona fide American money and yes,
you can use all of it at once!
Of course, their mailers have been tremendous,
which is why I was giving them some play despite
the old, slow machines with only a $1400 RF.
The Hard Rock is rapidly becomming a VP wasteland,
but for the moment it still has a little life.
In case anyone is considering going to play that
NSUD prog, you should be aware that the RF is
no longer up that high.
QZ
So if the machine I was playing was positive, I'd never get a
comp unless I lost--is that what you're saying? I've never seen
that before.
Actually, if the machine were actually losing money, then
you probably would not get a comp even if you did lose.
The theoretical win is NOT based on perfect play or even
your special strategies. It is based on actual machine hold.
The reason they call it a theoretical win is because they
simply assume everyone plays equally poorly. So, they assume
that your theoretical loss is simply the product of your coin
in times the machine hold, expressed as a percentage.
This concept has been around a long time. I am surprised you
have not been exposed to it.
Comps in the pit are often given out based on a theroretical
also. Again, the actual hold is the basis for their numbers.
This is why the action on your odds bets in craps is NOT
counted towards comps. The theoretical hold is 0%.
QZ
To clarify, from a theoretical standpoint no machine is positive. Experience shows that FPDW machines hold somewhere between 1/2 and 1 1/2%. These are the figures used. If you play $1000 through, 1/2% hold gives the house a theoretical win of $5. Your comps would be based upon that number, regardless of your actual win / loss at many facilities. If you put the same $1000 through a 3-reel 25c machine, you would probably have a theoretical loss of $60- $80. That's why reel players get more for less play than VP players.
Hope this helps.
Bill
At 10:06 PM 05/10/2003 -0700, you wrote:
So if the machine I was playing was positive, I'd never get a comp unless I lost--is that what you're saying? I've never seen that before.
"If you play $1000 through, 1/2% hold gives the house a theoretical win of $5. Your comps would be based upon that number, regardless of your actual win / loss at many facilities."
As I'm getting back into the comp scene, I've been asking around when making reservations. Almost exclusively, it's the amount of vp play/day they say they look at - and machine type, won/loss record, or time playing are not an issue. Of course, I'm talking to Strip resorts mostly. I'm sure Terrible's would have a smokey room with a greasy breakfast awaiting just about anyone.
Rob Singer wrote: <<As I'm getting back into the comp scene, I've been asking around when making reservations. Almost exclusively, it's the amount of vp play/day they say they look at - and machine type, won/loss record, or time playing are not an issue. Of course, I'm talking to Strip resorts mostly.>>
As you now seem to be finding that comps ARE a very valuable part of VP play (and I am wondering why you are now finding this to be true when you criticized others so fiercely for so long for talking about comps and other slot club benefits), you will find after more experience that Strip properties are NOT "almost exclusively" looking at coin-in. If you are getting your information from the casino, you will learn that asking casino personnel (including hosts and especially reservation clerks) about how comps are figured will rarely give you the complete picture. Few will tell you that win/loss figures or type of machine enter into the picture, even if they actually do in practice. One has to have a lot of actual experience and get little bits of information over time to become very knowledgeable - and even then stay aware that comp policies are always in a state of flux. And I know of NO casino that will issue comps if you don't use your players card, as you say you don't so that the casino don't know how much you win.
____________________
Jean $cott - "The Frugal Gambler"
Order autographed book, cassette tape, and the new
Frugal VP software at http://www.frugalgambler.biz
Read Frugal Fridays at http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
As you now seem to be finding that comps ARE a very valuable part
of VP play (and I am wondering why you are now finding this to be
true when you criticized others so fiercely for so long for talking
about comps and other slot club benefits), you will find after more
experience that Strip properties are NOT "almost exclusively"
looking at coin-in. If you are getting your information from the
casino, you will learn that asking casino personnel (including hosts
and especially reservation clerks) about how comps are figured will
rarely give you the complete picture. Few will tell you that
win/loss figures or type of machine enter into the picture, even if
they actually do in practice. One has to have a lot of actual
experience and get little bits of information over time to become
very knowledgeable - and even then stay aware that comp policies are
always in a state of flux. And I know of NO casino that will issue
comps if you don't use your players card, as you say you don't so
that the casino don't know how much you win.
We always knew, Jean, that foregoing comps of 0.5% or more in order
to maintain some kind of illusory anonymity was hardly a "winning
strategy." You gotta eat, and if you're a visitor, you gotta sleep.
A room comp that saves you $99 is the EXACT equivalent of hitting
quad 4's on .25 DB. If we have to play -EV games and relay on comps,
bouncebacks, and promos to push us over the top, then so be it:
I had what I thought was a strongly negative year in 2002 until I
added up the cash value of all the comps I had gotten. Our family
has so many diverse (and picky) tastes that cooking at home is an
exercise in futility. However, EVERYONE likes Garduno's, the GVR
buffet, etc. etc. Bounceback from NYNY, Aladdin, Park Place, and
other Strip megatoilets has far exceeded the actual $$ loss (from
JOB, NSUD, etc.). I have put up visiting friends and relatives in
very nice rooms on discretionary comps. SO, it would seem that the
local gets a better deal than the visitor, because we locals can
spend these short-time-horizon bouncebacks much more easily than the
visitors.
The bottom line for my 2002 play is -0.6% in actual cash results but
a HUGE 1.7% in bouncebacks, comps, etc. even considering the comps
at a discount of 80% (I do this because I figure I could have gotten
SOME discounts on meals/roms just by breathing). One tends to
consider only the cash results; I was amazed to realize that our
family had eaten over SEVEN HUNDRED comped meals last year!!!!
Obviously, with the degradation of VP opportunities as far as actual
cash earnings, comps are more important than ever in realizing value
for one's play. This is actually equitable, as the cost of comps to
the casino is never "face value"; the casino would rather comp you
to a $50 dinner than see you cart that amount of actual money out of
the casino.
Burp.
<<Obviously, with the degradation of VP opportunities as far as actual
cash earnings, comps are more important than ever in realizing value
for one's play.>>
This is so true - for both the local and the visitor to Vegas. And bounce-back is so VERY important to the local - since it is much harder now to find games at the $1 and up level that have an EV of 100+. We only choose the very best plays we can find on the $1 and up level and we average playing (counting both of us)only about 70-90 hours a month and we get bounce-back offers in the mail for a total of $2000 to $3000 a month.
This does take a lot of work figuring out casino BB levels and scheduling our play to maximize BB. We almost never play "on the spur of the moment" because we are "in the mood" to gamble. I don't get "in the mood" to gamble unless there is a good opportunity. Ours is a very very careful and organized plan, especially more so with the decrease in good VP games. However, there are still more opportunities than we have time to pursue, given the low number of hours we care to play. "Having a life" is still our top priority.
____________________
Jean $cott - "The Frugal Gambler"
Order autographed book, cassette tape, and the new
Frugal VP software at http://www.frugalgambler.biz
Read Frugal Fridays at http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rob: Why the strip ? There are some nice locals places with strip quality and better VP. Go to Green Valley Ranch, great rooms, good restaurants, good vp. If I was a dollar and up player, this place would be high on my list. The Palms would also be a good spot for a higher roller.
Regards
A.P.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Singer
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Hard Rock Update
"If you play $1000 through, 1/2% hold gives the house a theoretical win of $5. Your comps would be based upon that number, regardless of your actual win / loss at many facilities."
As I'm getting back into the comp scene, I've been asking around when making reservations. Almost exclusively, it's the amount of vp play/day they say they look at - and machine type, won/loss record, or time playing are not an issue. Of course, I'm talking to Strip resorts mostly. I'm sure Terrible's would have a smokey room with a greasy breakfast awaiting just about anyone.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
$2000-$3000 per month is a lot. Would you be willing to advise as to
which casinos, how much play and how much bounceback, etc??
On Sun, 11 May 2003 17:17:09 -0700, you wrote:
<<Obviously, with the degradation of VP opportunities as far as actual
cash earnings, comps are more important than ever in realizing value
for one's play.>>This is so true - for both the local and the visitor to Vegas. And bounce-back is so VERY important to the local - since it is much harder now to find games at the $1 and up level that have an EV of 100+. We only choose the very best plays we can find on the $1 and up level and we average playing (counting both of us)only about 70-90 hours a month and we get bounce-back offers in the mail for a total of $2000 to $3000 a month.
This does take a lot of work figuring out casino BB levels and scheduling our play to maximize BB. We almost never play "on the spur of the moment" because we are "in the mood" to gamble. I don't get "in the mood" to gamble unless there is a good opportunity. Ours is a very very careful and organized plan, especially more so with the decrease in good VP games. However, there are still more opportunities than we have time to pursue, given the low number of hours we care to play. "Having a life" is still our top priority.
____________________
Jean $cott - "The Frugal Gambler"
Order autographed book, cassette tape, and the new
Frugal VP software at http://www.frugalgambler.biz
Read Frugal Fridays at http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
vpFREE Links: http://tinyurl.com/a7ga
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
<<$2000-$3000 per month is a lot. Would you be willing to advise as to
which casinos, how much play and how much bounceback, etc??>>
The casinos and the amount of CB vary from month to month. Some of our regular "haunts" at the present include the Palms, Texas Station, NYNY, Hard Rock. But it is a constantly-changing situation, with A LOT of work to find out what it takes to get what. I'm too busy doing it to write about every little detail. Besides I am not at liberty to share publicly some plays because I am told them in confidence - and I NEVER publish information that I have promised I would keep confidential. A large network of friends who share information PRIVATELY is one of the best weapons in our assault against the casino edge. Are you friendly and make friends with other locals - or do you play with your nose up in the air? And are you willing to share your information as well as receive it from others.
And remember that this BB comes from playing a lot of negative games - which some would never do. We have to add in this bounce-back to get us over 100% and up to as high a theoretical profit percentage as we can. And BB isn't our only tool. Promotions are a major boast that adds hundreds, sometimes thousands, of dollars many months.
Actually, most players could probably just scour the data-bases on this site (and others) and find out a lot of the information that we use. Most of it isn't really "secret." You just have to be determined to seek out the best opportunities, no matter how small or "undesirable" the casino. The less picky you are the more money you can make!!! (So you think Terrible's is terrible. That's okay with me. But a few savvy players have been making a lot of money there ever since it opened.)
I don't always practice what I preach. I should be at the Tuscany right now. But that would mean I would have had to get up before breakfast today - and I doubt if I could have been there in my nightgown - as I can be while ranting on my computer.
____________________
Jean $cott - "The Frugal Gambler"
Order autographed book, cassette tape, and the new
Frugal VP software at http://www.frugalgambler.biz
Read Frugal Fridays at http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I had what I thought was a strongly negative year in 2002 until I
added up the cash value of all the comps I had gotten. Our family
has so many diverse (and picky) tastes that cooking at home is an
exercise in futility. However, EVERYONE likes Garduno's, the GVR
buffet, etc. etc. Bounceback from NYNY, Aladdin, Park Place, and
other Strip megatoilets has far exceeded the actual $$ loss (from
JOB, NSUD, etc.).
Why are you lumping BB in with comps? I view bounceback is just a
delayed form of cashback that is part of the non-comp return. Given
that its you making the post, though, I feel like I'm missing
something. Please elaborate.
The bottom line for my 2002 play is -0.6% in actual cash results
but
a HUGE 1.7% in bouncebacks, comps, etc.
Again, what are you considering actual cash results? Only the VP
game itself, or do you include cashback? If you include cashback, why
not BB? Finally, could you give the numerator and denominator for
the 1.7% - not your numbers, but the items that comprise the
numerator and denominator?
>
> I had what I thought was a strongly negative year in 2002 until
I
> added up the cash value of all the comps I had gotten. Our
family
> has so many diverse (and picky) tastes that cooking at home is
an
> exercise in futility. However, EVERYONE likes Garduno's, the GVR
> buffet, etc. etc. Bounceback from NYNY, Aladdin, Park Place, and
> other Strip megatoilets has far exceeded the actual $$ loss
(from
> JOB, NSUD, etc.).
Why are you lumping BB in with comps? I view bounceback is just a
delayed form of cashback that is part of the non-comp return.
Given
that its you making the post, though, I feel like I'm missing
something. Please elaborate.
I record actual results on the day they occur. BB and comps are
usually unknown at this time, and not spent until later. So I just
calculate BB received at the time redeemed, and comps at the time
used. This gives me an overall "income" figure from VP for the
month, and reflects the fact that as a practical matter, you can't
redeem ALL your bounceback. This is why I consider it different from
cashback---one way or another, you just don't redeem ALL of it.
>
> The bottom line for my 2002 play is -0.6% in actual cash results
but
> a HUGE 1.7% in bouncebacks, comps, etc.Again, what are you considering actual cash results? Only the VP
game itself,
Just coin-in vs. coin-out at the end of the day.
or do you include cashback? If you include cashback, why
not BB? Finally, could you give the numerator and denominator for
the 1.7% - not your numbers, but the items that comprise the
numerator and denominator?
The places I played in that offered cashback (most prominently
Aladdin and Coasts) had/have a higher $ comp redemption rate than
cashback for the same points. For example, Coast gives you $10 cash
for 4000 points but $12 in comps for the same points. So it made
sense for me to spend the points on meals. The result is that I
redeemed very little actual cashback in 2002 (also, probably 75% of
my play was at Stations and Palms, which do bounceback, not
cashback).
I can't find the exact figures, but I do remember my net cash loss
was just under $15,000. So, if you extrapolate, that means about
$43,000 in BB and comps (I also figured in proceeds from slot
tourneys, special invites, and such), and about $2.5 million in
action.
As Jean Scott notes in her post, it REALLY matters where you put
your action, and how you do it. The Palms rewards a high daily play
average. Stations just wants a given amount of action/quarter, and
you run into diminishing returns over a certain amount of play.
Also, I ran $6000 through Bellagio one day, and have never received
even a postcard in the mail from them...
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "LoungeLizard" <llounge@h...> wrote: