vpFREE2 Forums

Hard Rock Casino in Fort Lauderdal

Can somebody explain how a lottery based machine deals the cards.I asume
they don't use a 52 card deck?

Also a Class 3 machine?

I sometimes play at Empire casino at the yonkers raceway in N.Y.They have a
10/7 Double bonus with a 5000 coin royal.And also a bonus match card.If you
get a winning hand and one of your cards matches it you win a additional bonus
which sometimes is pretty hefty.I've been playing it using 10/7 strategy
adjusted for the extra 1000 coin payoff for the royal.I'm actually quite abit
ahead adding up all my wins & losses.Is this just dumb luck or are the extra
payoffs and strategy helping?I'm guessing that this is a lottery or bingo based
machine even though I don't quite understand what that means..If it were
vegas style I figure the payback would be over 110%.

Marc

In a message dated 2/5/2009 9:05:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
paladingamingllc@yahoo.com writes:

--- In vpFREE+AEA-yahoogro--- In vpFREE+AEA-yahoogro<WB<acprofessi+acprofe>
wrote:

I was at the Hard Rock Casino for the firt time. I saw they had 9/6
JOB. Can someone tell me if this pays the 99.54+ACU- or is it a lottery
based machine? Thanks in advance.

If there's a bingo card on the machine, it's bingo, even though it
looks like video poker. There will also be a disclaimer, "display for
entertainment purposes only". If no bingo card, then it's likely Class
III. If in doubt, ask a floorperson if they are "Vegas style" machines.

AFAIK, all the 9-6 Jacks at Seminole Hollywood (and Tampa) are Class III.

**************Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on
AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000001)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The payback on these Racino games in NY are a mystery.
They are not random in the way you think.
They aer stacked, that is there is a series of results preloaded in the machine and the end hand is decided when the cards are dealt. I discovered that if you get two pair and throw them all away, you will get what you were picked to get, regardless of what you hold. Throw away two pair and you will get two pair at a minimum. I will never play any of these machines until I KNOW WHAT THE PAYOFF IS. I actually considered filing a complaint against the state because this constitutes false advertising by having a pay scale for hands but they are not randomly dealt (who knows the criteria of the stack generation)

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: marccarfi@aol.com
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 4:57 PM
  Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Hard Rock Casino in Fort Lauderdal

  Can somebody explain how a lottery based machine deals the cards.I asume
  they don't use a 52 card deck?

  Also a Class 3 machine?

  I sometimes play at Empire casino at the yonkers raceway in N.Y.They have a
  10/7 Double bonus with a 5000 coin royal.And also a bonus match card.If you
  get a winning hand and one of your cards matches it you win a additional bonus
  which sometimes is pretty hefty.I've been playing it using 10/7 strategy
  adjusted for the extra 1000 coin payoff for the royal.I'm actually quite abit
  ahead adding up all my wins & losses.Is this just dumb luck or are the extra
  payoffs and strategy helping?I'm guessing that this is a lottery or bingo based
  machine even though I don't quite understand what that means..If it were
  vegas style I figure the payback would be over 110%.

  Marc

  In a message dated 2/5/2009 9:05:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
  paladingamingllc@yahoo.com writes:

  --- In vpFREE+AEA-yahoogro--- In vpFREE+AEA-yahoogro<WB<acprofessi+acprofe>
  wrote:
  >
  > I was at the Hard Rock Casino for the firt time. I saw they had 9/6
  > JOB. Can someone tell me if this pays the 99.54+ACU- or is it a lottery
  > based machine? Thanks in advance.

  If there's a bingo card on the machine, it's bingo, even though it
  looks like video poker. There will also be a disclaimer, "display for
  entertainment purposes only". If no bingo card, then it's likely Class
  III. If in doubt, ask a floorperson if they are "Vegas style" machines.

  AFAIK, all the 9-6 Jacks at Seminole Hollywood (and Tampa) are Class III.

  **************Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on
  AOL Music.
  (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000001)

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG.
  Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.18/1936 - Release Date: 2/5/2009 11:34 AM

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On a Class II machine, what if....

....the machine determined that the winning hand would be a royal
flush; dealt you four-to-the-royal; and you only kept three of the four
cards? If you threw away one of the cards necessary to complete a royal
flush, how would it give you the winning hand that was intended?

It seems to me that these video poker machines would be no more fun (or
interesting) to play than typical slot machines, because your discard
choices are meaningless.

Yes, the pay schedules are meaningless, when trying to determine the payback
percentage. But, they have to have *some* pay schedule on the machine so
that players will know what each combination of cards pays. This is just
like the pay schedule on a slot machine. Seeing the pay schedule doesn't
help you determine the payback percentage of a slot machine. But, it's
still needed.

I've never seen what disclaimers & other information that is printed on the
face of Class II video poker machines. But, it seems to me that it is not
false advertising.

Curtis

···

On 2/5/09, Tom Hackwelder <hackt@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

The payback on these Racino games in NY are a mystery.
They are not random in the way you think.
They aer stacked, that is there is a series of results preloaded in the
machine and the end hand is decided when the cards are dealt. I discovered
that if you get two pair and throw them all away, you will get what you were
picked to get, regardless of what you hold. Throw away two pair and you will
get two pair at a minimum. I will never play any of these machines until I
KNOW WHAT THE PAYOFF IS. I actually considered filing a complaint against
the state because this constitutes false advertising by having a pay scale
for hands but they are not randomly dealt (who knows the criteria of the
stack generation)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marc said, "Is this just dumb luck or are the extra payoffs and strategy
helping?"

I guess that the most definitive way to find out if the machine is Class II
would be to discard a dealt winning hand and see what hand you get
after the draw.

Curtis

···

On 2/5/09, marccarfi@aol.com <marccarfi@aol.com> wrote:

Can somebody explain how a lottery based machine deals the cards.I asume
they don't use a 52 card deck?

Also a Class 3 machine?

I sometimes play at Empire casino at the yonkers raceway in N.Y.They have a
10/7 Double bonus with a 5000 coin royal.And also a bonus match card.If you
get a winning hand and one of your cards matches it you win a additional
bonus
which sometimes is pretty hefty.I've been playing it using 10/7 strategy
adjusted for the extra 1000 coin payoff for the royal.I'm actually quite
abit
ahead adding up all my wins & losses.Is this just dumb luck or are the
extra
payoffs and strategy helping?I'm guessing that this is a lottery or bingo
based
machine even though I don't quite understand what that means..If it were
vegas style I figure the payback would be over 110%.

Marc

In a message dated 2/5/2009 9:05:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
paladingamingllc@yahoo.com writes:

--- In vpFREE+AEA-yahoogro--- In vpFREE+AEA-yahoogro<WB<acprofessi+acprofe>
wrote:
>
> I was at the Hard Rock Casino for the firt time. I saw they had 9/6
> JOB. Can someone tell me if this pays the 99.54+ACU- or is it a lottery
> based machine? Thanks in advance.

If there's a bingo card on the machine, it's bingo, even though it
looks like video poker. There will also be a disclaimer, "display for
entertainment purposes only". If no bingo card, then it's likely Class
III. If in doubt, ask a floorperson if they are "Vegas style" machines.

AFAIK, all the 9-6 Jacks at Seminole Hollywood (and Tampa) are Class III.

**************Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time
on
AOL Music.
(
http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000001
)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The pay schedule implies a payback and the machine pays something else, whatever it is.
The royal question is an interesting one, same with three aces and you throw one away, because four of something else is a different pay. Don't know the answer.
Also, the machines don't have the usual "game is played with a 52 card deck" on the top section like is normal.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Curtis Rich
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 7:20 PM
  Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Hard Rock Casino in Fort Lauderdal

  On a Class II machine, what if....

  ....the machine determined that the winning hand would be a royal
  flush; dealt you four-to-the-royal; and you only kept three of the four
  cards? If you threw away one of the cards necessary to complete a royal
  flush, how would it give you the winning hand that was intended?

  It seems to me that these video poker machines would be no more fun (or
  interesting) to play than typical slot machines, because your discard
  choices are meaningless.

  Yes, the pay schedules are meaningless, when trying to determine the payback
  percentage. But, they have to have *some* pay schedule on the machine so
  that players will know what each combination of cards pays. This is just
  like the pay schedule on a slot machine. Seeing the pay schedule doesn't
  help you determine the payback percentage of a slot machine. But, it's
  still needed.

  I've never seen what disclaimers & other information that is printed on the
  face of Class II video poker machines. But, it seems to me that it is not
  false advertising.

  Curtis

  On 2/5/09, Tom Hackwelder <hackt@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
  >
  > The payback on these Racino games in NY are a mystery.
  > They are not random in the way you think.
  > They aer stacked, that is there is a series of results preloaded in the
  > machine and the end hand is decided when the cards are dealt. I discovered
  > that if you get two pair and throw them all away, you will get what you were
  > picked to get, regardless of what you hold. Throw away two pair and you will
  > get two pair at a minimum. I will never play any of these machines until I
  > KNOW WHAT THE PAYOFF IS. I actually considered filing a complaint against
  > the state because this constitutes false advertising by having a pay scale
  > for hands but they are not randomly dealt (who knows the criteria of the
  > stack generation)

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG.
  Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.18/1936 - Release Date: 2/5/2009 11:34 AM

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marccarfi wrote:

Can somebody explain how a lottery based machine deals the cards.I
asume they don't use a 52 card deck?

Also a Class 3 machine?

I sometimes play at Empire casino at the yonkers raceway in
N.Y.They have a 10/7 Double bonus with a 5000 coin royal.And also a
bonus match card.If you get a winning hand and one of your cards
matches it you win a additional bonus which sometimes is pretty
hefty.I've been playing it using 10/7 strategy adjusted for the
extra 1000 coin payoff for the royal.I'm actually quite a bit
ahead adding up all my wins & losses.Is this just dumb luck or are
the extra payoffs and strategy helping?I'm guessing that this is a
lottery or bingo based machine even though I don't quite
understand what that means..If it were vegas style I figure the
payback would be over 110%.

I'll add generally to what's been offered. In my experience, there
are 3 principal forms of video poker offered in the US.

The first might be deemed as NV-compliant. These machines, whether in
NV or otherwise, meet the requirements necessary to be offered in LV.
These machines can reasonably be deemed as "fair" in offering an
electromechanical simulation of a deck of playing cards.

···

------

The second is a primary electronic gaming offering in Indian gaming
casinos. These machines are offered under specifications defined by
the National Indian Gaming Commission and are generally referred to as
Type II machines. "Class II" means that it's an electronic extension
of "Class I" bingo games that represent one of only a few types of
gaming that can be offered outside of specific contracts between the
tribes and state authorities.

With Class II machines, you and other players in the casino in effect
are participating in an electronic bingo game, with a specific prize
awarded to the winner. Typically, a representation of a bingo card
will be displayed on the machine and you see a virtual game played
out. It's to be imagined that you are competing with only 1 or 2
other machines, yielding an appropriate "hit" rate.

For whomever is a winner in a particular game, a prize is distributed
to the machine. To effect awarding of that prize, cards are
distributed on the draw and deal that can form a hand paying that
prize amount.

Because a player exercises control over hold cards and might defeat
the formation of an intended winning hand, there's a secondary
mechanism to ensure the prize is awarded. In certain IGT Class II
machines, a "genie" may appear and turn over certain cards of the
final hand and replace them with new ones that form the pre-determined
winning hand.

It's to be noted that there's a "Class III" designation which is used
for all gaming equipment that doesn't meet this Class II
specification. It applies to ALL machines which aren't Class II. As
such, NV compliant machines are Class III. However, any non-bingo
engine based machine is deemed Class III, therefore the "Class III" is
not a guarantee of fairness and is a term best avoided (it's often
inaccurately used interchangably with "fair")

------

Another Class III device is a lottery-based mechanism -- known as
video lottery terminals (VLT). These machines can be thought of as an
"pull tab" equivalent (a paper game in which you pull or scratch to
reveal a prize). Sometimes these machines are physically labeled "VLT".

Gaming terminals are connected to a central machine (determinant)
which randomly selects from a pool of predetermined prizes and losers.
When you play a hand, an outcome is distributed to your machine.
Similar to Class II, because a player can defeat the desired win via
their selection of draw cards, a secondary means of awarding a prize
is necessary.

The most often mentioned mechanism is a "Match Card". In the machines
I've seen of this type (WA State), a sixth card appears on the draw
above the fifth card of the final hand. If those two cards match, a
match card bonus is awarded. In this manner, the predetermined prize
can be awarded by the match card alone, or by awarding a bonus that
supplements a payout on a winning hand.

------

A "lottery" designation in conjunction with a video poker offering
need not mean that the machines are VLT. It's reported that machines
in WVa, operated under auspices of the state lottery authority, are
Class III LV-compliant machines. A tell is that the paytables are
relatively poor. Where Class II or VLT equipment is involved,
paytables would typically represent 99%+ games (often 100%+) were they
LV-compliant.

------

Your success playing a Match Card machine is fortunate, and most
likely runs against the odds. Class II and VLT machines can, of
course, be set to any desired return (the return is a function of the
composition of the predetermined prize pool distributed to the
machines, and not the paytables themselves). However, it's generally
reported that most authorities involved set returns in the 80% to low
90% range.

- Harry

Harry Porter wrote:

I'll add generally to what's been offered ...

Just wanted to note that significant credit for the info I presented
on Type II bingo-engine and VLT video poker machines can be granted to
Linda Boyd, who went to great pains to delve into such details and is
very familiar with details of specific machine offerings that can be
found in most jurisdictions.

- H.

> Also a Class 3 machine?

>
> I sometimes play at Empire casino at the yonkers raceway in
> N.Y.They have a 10/7 Double bonus with a 5000 coin royal.And also

a

> bonus match card.If you get a winning hand and one of your cards
> matches it you win a additional bonus which sometimes is pretty
> hefty.I've been playing it using 10/7 strategy adjusted for the
> extra 1000 coin payoff for the royal.I'm actually quite a bit
> ahead adding up all my wins & losses.Is this just dumb luck or

are

> the extra payoffs and strategy helping?I'm guessing that this is

a

> lottery or bingo based machine even though I don't quite
> understand what that means..If it were vegas style I figure the
> payback would be over 110%.

Almost exactly 2 years ago I was in Hamburg NY playing $1 DDB $5000
royals machines. I didn't realize these machines weren't "random"
till I got home and had some discussion on this forum. My results:
Tues. $5000 royal
Weds. Aces but gave most of it back
Thurs. lost about $700
Fri. $5000 royal
A woman got a royal 2 machines away from me on Weds. nite. I asked
her how she could keep playing cuz when I got mine the nite B4
everything locked up & an attendant came over for the payoff. She
said she was only playing $2. I just cringed.

BTW, I almost submitted "a attendant" in the preceding paragraph, but
I didn't want the grammer police on my tale.

Also BTW, thanks to those on this forum. When I got home from NY, I
was about to sell my house & pack for Hamburg when I found out I must
have been extremely lucky. I'm still tempted to go back out there &
give er a nother try tho.

···

There is no secret about these games. They are a visual display of lottery scratch-off tickets. When you press the deal button a central server selects the next scratch-off ticket and checks the result. If it doesn't pay, you will get a losing hand on the vp machine. If it does, no matter what you draw you will end up with the correct result, even if the "genie" or match number has to come up to wipe out the remaining cards and display the correct result.

They are perfectly fair under NY Lottery rules. However, the pay table does not indicate what the return is; in fact every machine in the racino has the same return. Contact the racino management or the Lottery to find out what that return is.

This also applies to Washington State Indian casinos but does NOT apply to NY Indian casinos.

Look through the vpfree archives, this information has been posted many, many, many times.

···

At 07:25 PM 2/5/2009, you wrote:

The payback on these Racino games in NY are a mystery.
They are not random in the way you think.
They aer stacked, that is there is a series of results preloaded in the machine and the end hand is decided when the cards are dealt. I discovered that if you get two pair and throw them all away, you will get what you were picked to get, regardless of what you hold. Throw away two pair and you will get two pair at a minimum. I will never play any of these machines until I KNOW WHAT THE PAYOFF IS. I actually considered filing a complaint against the state because this constitutes false advertising by having a pay scale for hands but they are not randomly dealt (who knows the criteria of the stack generation)

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: marccarfi@aol.com
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 4:57 PM
  Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Hard Rock Casino in Fort Lauderdal

  Can somebody explain how a lottery based machine deals the cards.I asume
  they don't use a 52 card deck?

  Also a Class 3 machine?

  I sometimes play at Empire casino at the yonkers raceway in N.Y.They have a
  10/7 Double bonus with a 5000 coin royal.And also a bonus match card.If you
  get a winning hand and one of your cards matches it you win a additional bonus
  which sometimes is pretty hefty.I've been playing it using 10/7 strategy
  adjusted for the extra 1000 coin payoff for the royal.I'm actually quite abit
  ahead adding up all my wins & losses.Is this just dumb luck or are the extra
  payoffs and strategy helping?I'm guessing that this is a lottery or bingo based
  machine even though I don't quite understand what that means..If it were
  vegas style I figure the payback would be over 110%.

  Marc

  In a message dated 2/5/2009 9:05:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
  paladingamingllc@yahoo.com writes:

  --- In vpFREE+AEA-yahoogro--- In vpFREE+AEA-yahoogro<WB<acprofessi+acprofe>
  wrote:
  >
  > I was at the Hard Rock Casino for the firt time. I saw they had 9/6
  > JOB. Can someone tell me if this pays the 99.54+ACU- or is it a lottery
  > based machine? Thanks in advance.

  If there's a bingo card on the machine, it's bingo, even though it
  looks like video poker. There will also be a disclaimer, "display for
  entertainment purposes only". If no bingo card, then it's likely Class
  III. If in doubt, ask a floorperson if they are "Vegas style" machines.

  AFAIK, all the 9-6 Jacks at Seminole Hollywood (and Tampa) are Class III.

  **************Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on
  AOL Music.

(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000001)

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG.
  Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.18/1936 - Release Date: 2/5/2009 11:34 AM

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

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Yahoo! Groups Links

You have made a few errors in your post.

Class I, II, and III ONLY apply to Indian Casinos. Class I involves traditional Indian games played for very low stakes and is completely unregulated. These games are not found in casinos.

Class II refers to certain types of games, primarily Bingo, pull-tabs and similar games that can be played on a reservation as long as the Tribal regulations permit it. A while back machines began to be produced that either played Bingo or selected pull-tabs but looked like slot or (later) vp machines. Bingo-based Class II machines have the patrons play against each other, meaning that machines will not show any results unless at least 2 people are playing machines in the casino.

Class III refers to casino-type games including slot machines, VP and table games. The authority of an Indian casino to have such games requires a compact to be signed with the governor of the state. Different games are permitted in different states.

VLT's are not as you describe below. Except for NY State racinos (and video poker machines in Washington State) they all operate the same way that Nevada machines do. The major difference is that they must be in constant contact with the Lottery's accounting server. If that link goes down the machine stops operating. (If a Nevada-type machine loses communication with the accounting machine it will continue to work and store transactions until communication is restored.) I understand that at least one jurisdiction keeps the RNG program running on the central server rather than internally in the machine but I may be incorrect in this. However, it would make absolutely no difference to the player since if the machine is in contact with the server it works, if not it doesn't). NY racino (not Indian) and Washington State have either a genie (IGT) or match card to "correct" hold errors the player makes so they can display the pre-determined win.

Commercial casinos, both land-based and riverboat, never (to my knowledge) use the type of machines manufactured for Class II Indian casinos but there is no reason why a jurisdiction could not allow it and have a casino install them.

···

At 11:38 PM 2/5/2009, you wrote:

marccarfi wrote:

It's to be noted that there's a "Class III" designation which is used
for all gaming equipment that doesn't meet this Class II
specification. It applies to ALL machines which aren't Class II. As
such, NV compliant machines are Class III. However, any non-bingo
engine based machine is deemed Class III, therefore the "Class III" is
not a guarantee of fairness and is a term best avoided (it's often
inaccurately used interchangably with "fair")

------

Another Class III device is a lottery-based mechanism -- known as
video lottery terminals (VLT). These machines can be thought of as an
"pull tab" equivalent (a paper game in which you pull or scratch to
reveal a prize). Sometimes these machines are physically labeled "VLT".

Gaming terminals are connected to a central machine (determinant)
which randomly selects from a pool of predetermined prizes and losers.
When you play a hand, an outcome is distributed to your machine.
Similar to Class II, because a player can defeat the desired win via
their selection of draw cards, a secondary means of awarding a prize
is necessary.

The most often mentioned mechanism is a "Match Card". In the machines
I've seen of this type (WA State), a sixth card appears on the draw
above the fifth card of the final hand. If those two cards match, a
match card bonus is awarded. In this manner, the predetermined prize
can be awarded by the match card alone, or by awarding a bonus that
supplements a payout on a winning hand.

------

A "lottery" designation in conjunction with a video poker offering
need not mean that the machines are VLT. It's reported that machines
in WVa, operated under auspices of the state lottery authority, are
Class III LV-compliant machines. A tell is that the paytables are
relatively poor. Where Class II or VLT equipment is involved,
paytables would typically represent 99%+ games (often 100%+) were they
LV-compliant.

------

Your success playing a Match Card machine is fortunate, and most
likely runs against the odds. Class II and VLT machines can, of
course, be set to any desired return (the return is a function of the
composition of the predetermined prize pool distributed to the
machines, and not the paytables themselves). However, it's generally
reported that most authorities involved set returns in the 80% to low
90% range.

- Harry

------------------------------------

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