He got pitched out because his card kept falling out of the machine.
Heh, that's funny!
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:
HANS "TUNA" LUND (1949-2009)
This story is hilarious! It's so funny-and a typical Tuna story. Get stupid and you pay.
Tuna said one of my all time favorite lines: "If I had all the money
in the world, I'd make 'em print more so I could have that."
He probably had it on a short leash.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@> wrote:
>
He got pitched out because his card kept falling out of the machine.
>Heh, that's funny!
I was talking with my friend Al today about Tuna. Some of the stuff was not exactlly flattering. Tuna was not exactly known as a clothes horse, shall we say. I think he changed his clothes at least once a month whether he needed to or not.
This comes from Al: "It was one of those times when the Pepp slipped the dollar full pay deuces back in. Miles and me were in playing them quite frequently. Tuna pretty much avoided the bank, but one day he did come in and play for about 6 hours. You know, he must have had about a dozen drinks but never tipped the coctail waitress once. And she was absolutely gorgeous!"
There is a person following this thread that I unsubscribed from FREEvpFREE in order to avoid. He brings out the worst in me so even a hard headed guy like me had to say enough is enough. Life is too short.
But when I started this thread I started getting harassing email from him. It's the usual diatribes about vp pros living in a fantasy world where we just imagine that we win--we're all bums who just make stuff up. And, of course, Tuna would have lived longer if he hadn't hung out in the casinos so much. And did this degenerate Tuna have an HMO or a 401K? Well, I don't know if he did or not. Does a multi-millioniare need all that stuff?
I tried to chill this guy out, but he keeps going on, like an evil Energizer Bunny. Two words: block sender.
Some people you will never be able to reason with. Let him believe what he wants to believe. But for the grace of God, you could be him.
I talked to my Webmistress today, we're looking at updating the software to start my blog again. If I start it up again, don't look for sunshine and roses. IMHO the future of profitable VP is very weak. I think you have 2-3 years left before it's all over.
I do promise the first discussion will be about who really should be in the VP HoF. Dancer gets in there for sure, not so sure about Jean though. Of course, if you're a high limit player, you probably only get in there posthumously lol.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:
But when I started this thread I started getting harassing email from him. It's the usual diatribes about vp pros living in a fantasy world where we just imagine that we win--we're all bums who just make stuff up. And, of course, Tuna would have lived longer if he hadn't hung out in the casinos so much. And did this degenerate Tuna have an HMO or a 401K? Well, I don't know if he did or not. Does a multi-millioniare need all that stuff?
IMHO the future of profitable VP is very weak. I think you have 2-3 years left before it's all over.
I assume you are talking about big players, I hope you don't think it's ALL going to be over. Don't you think there will always be room for small to medium players grinding out 1/2-to-1% at least? I just cannot imagine there not being any more casinos offering decent situations when there is fierce competition amongst them for the players. Do you disagree?
-BB
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "WP SF" <paladingamingllc@...> wrote:
I disagree - at least as it relates to the casinos I regularly visit. Casinos don't reason like normal business people. The typical response from a casino which is losing customer share is to tighten up the games and comps more and more so as to squeeze additional profit from their few remaining players, until eventually they run off almost everyone. The casinos all seem to be dead set on eliminating ANY possibility of a VP player obtaining an advantage over them, no matter how small. If they do happen to offer some decent games, the cash back and bounce back mailers you get will be so small that you're essentially spinning your wheels at a break-even proposition. If the mailers are very good, the games will be so bad that you can't make the math work out. And if the games aren't too bad and the mailers are pretty good, then they'll eventually reduce or cut off your mail! (Obviously I'm generalizing to some extent, but not by much.) I hate to be so pessimistic, but the situation is what it is. Some of this is no doubt related to the economy. Where once the casinos may have felt that they could stand to lose to the .1% of the players who are APs as long as they could make a healthy profit off the remaining 99.9%, now they apparently think they can't afford to give away ANYthing. Casino greed and arrogance also plays a part (as in "how dare these APs think they can come in here and beat us"). And part of the problem, as much as I hate to say it, relates to the easy availability to the general public (not to mention casino officials) of accurate and helpful information from sites such as this one.
I don't think we've quite reached the end of profitable video poker yet, but to borrow from an old saying "you can see it from here". There's a reason why I'm seeing more and more good VP players at the (live) poker tables these days.
EE
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:
I assume you are talking about big players, I hope you don't think it's ALL going to be over. Don't you think there will always be room for small to medium players grinding out 1/2-to-1% at least? I just cannot imagine there not being any more casinos offering decent situations when there is fierce competition amongst them for the players. Do you disagree?
You are correct in your observation that casinos don't reason like normal business people. On a number of occasions I have tried to show these people how they can increase profits by understanding the fundament math underlying their businesses then taking that understanding to a sophisticated level. But more often than not they cannot understand that they are retail operations with undifferentiated product lines. They are more concerned with maintaining margins and ensuring they have no loss leaders than they are in making a profit.
I would contend that it takes as much "skill" to run companies like MGM, Harrah's and Stations to or over the brink of bankruptcy as it would to create a company like Google from scratch. But with a good dose of paranoia, chasing away customers (profitable as well as loss leader) during an economic downturn and failing to understand the basic psychology of both ignorant and knowledgeable customers they somehow managed it.
The problem with the previous letter writer is assuming that these guys compete. When one of them cuts benefits and give-aways instead of counter-marketing the "competition" says "Goody! Now I can cut back, too."
Bill
···
At 12:46 PM 12/1/2009, you wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:
>
>>
> I assume you are talking about big players, I hope you don't think it's ALL going to be over. Don't you think there will always be room for small to medium players grinding out 1/2-to-1% at least? I just cannot imagine there not being any more casinos offering decent situations when there is fierce competition amongst them for the players. Do you disagree?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I disagree - at least as it relates to the casinos I regularly visit. Casinos don't reason like normal business people. The typical response from a casino which is losing customer share is to tighten up the games and comps more and more so as to squeeze additional profit from their few remaining players, until eventually they run off almost everyone. The casinos all seem to be dead set on eliminating ANY possibility of a VP player obtaining an advantage over them, no matter how small. If they do happen to offer some decent games, the cash back and bounce back mailers you get will be so small that you're essentially spinning your wheels at a break-even proposition. If the mailers are very good, the games will be so bad that you can't make the math work out. And if the games aren't too bad and the mailers are pretty good, then they'll eventually reduce or cut off your mail! (Obviously I'm generalizing to some extent, but not by much.) I hate to be so pessimistic, but the situation is what it is. Some of this is no doubt related to the economy. Where once the casinos may have felt that they could stand to lose to the .1% of the players who are APs as long as they could make a healthy profit off the remaining 99.9%, now they apparently think they can't afford to give away ANYthing. Casino greed and arrogance also plays a part (as in "how dare these APs think they can come in here and beat us"). And part of the problem, as much as I hate to say it, relates to the easy availability to the general public (not to mention casino officials) of accurate and helpful information from sites such as this one.
I don't think we've quite reached the end of profitable video poker yet, but to borrow from an old saying "you can see it from here". There's a reason why I'm seeing more and more good VP players at the (live) poker tables these days.
EE
------------------------------------
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
EE hit it on the head. My thoughts exactly, almost to the letter.
I think most of the issue is the economy, and some of these casinos are in a lot more trouble than you think. MGM Mirage is thisclose to BK, so is HET, despite their planned takeover of PH (haven't they destroyed enough places on the Strip already? I guess not.). Stations already is, and their reorganization will be an interesting one, to say the least. Boyd wants to take them over, and I think there may be some litigation between Colony Capital and the Fertittas at some point.
Not to mention the fact, due to this wonderful thing called "financial engineering", we are now in the worst economy since the Great Depression. Which the casinos took part in, and are now hurting financially because of, and guess what happens next because of it?
Where I'm going with this is casinos are more than ever sensitive to getting beat, they are more and more sensitive to eliminating unprofitable players from their rolls, so guess who becomes the hot button topic of the day? It becomes a game of whack a mole...find an AP, whether the AP is real or merely perceived (mostly the latter), get an attaboy from your boss and save your job. Because the fact that there is just too much information about the game these days gives cover to tossing players. At the same time, they lose perspective of what the big picture is.
I went through this 15 or so years ago with BJ21. All BJ21 has done was wise up the casinos. There was heavy casino suit infiltration on the site, both Green and Black Chip, and at a couple MGM Mirage casinos, players were getting tossed for counting whether they were actually counting or not. One former MGM Mirage exec told me once that the floor was so incompetent in spotting counters that they had to reinstate everyone they backed off (or maybe that was his going away present when he left lol), then backed them off again under new, improved procedures. The execs also knew who was who on BJ21 from the posts. So, I find the irony pretty funny when Bob Dancer states that BJ21 owner Stanford Wong is his idol. Except that Bob made a lot more money than SW at gambling. Like a lot of teachers, SW's blackjack, at least the not getting caught part, leaves a lot to be desired.
The parallels are screaming bright line apparent.
Frankly, I can do video poker consulting light years better than Dancer, I don't have to out anyone, I could do this in my sleep. Maybe I need to reach out to Larry DeMar and take him to lunch next time I'm in Vegas or Reno or whereever he is lol. To be fair to Bob, my perspective is radically different, but I am also convinced it's the right one. Let's just say if we're going to compare it to chess, let's not be playing checkers.
I'll leave you with one final lesson from my exec friend...some people who walk into the casino are smarter than others, you have to accept this. At the same time, you have to figure out where it becomes a loss of resources to deal with those people. Neither he nor I could ever figure out why they would pay so much attention to a wannabe counter who might have been break even with the house at best, because of cover and mistakes, but let a guy like Dancer play with a big edge without working out the math, which is a lot easier than evaluating someone's skill at 21. And this discussion wasn't recent, it was almost 10 years ago.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "eecounter" <eecounter@...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@> wrote:
>
>
>>
> I assume you are talking about big players, I hope you don't think it's ALL going to be over. Don't you think there will always be room for small to medium players grinding out 1/2-to-1% at least? I just cannot imagine there not being any more casinos offering decent situations when there is fierce competition amongst them for the players. Do you disagree?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I disagree - at least as it relates to the casinos I regularly visit. Casinos don't reason like normal business people. The typical response from a casino which is losing customer share is to tighten up the games and comps more and more so as to squeeze additional profit from their few remaining players, until eventually they run off almost everyone. The casinos all seem to be dead set on eliminating ANY possibility of a VP player obtaining an advantage over them, no matter how small. If they do happen to offer some decent games, the cash back and bounce back mailers you get will be so small that you're essentially spinning your wheels at a break-even proposition. If the mailers are very good, the games will be so bad that you can't make the math work out. And if the games aren't too bad and the mailers are pretty good, then they'll eventually reduce or cut off your mail! (Obviously I'm generalizing to some extent, but not by much.) I hate to be so pessimistic, but the situation is what it is. Some of this is no doubt related to the economy. Where once the casinos may have felt that they could stand to lose to the .1% of the players who are APs as long as they could make a healthy profit off the remaining 99.9%, now they apparently think they can't afford to give away ANYthing. Casino greed and arrogance also plays a part (as in "how dare these APs think they can come in here and beat us"). And part of the problem, as much as I hate to say it, relates to the easy availability to the general public (not to mention casino officials) of accurate and helpful information from sites such as this one.
I don't think we've quite reached the end of profitable video poker yet, but to borrow from an old saying "you can see it from here". There's a reason why I'm seeing more and more good VP players at the (live) poker tables these days.
EE
<snip excellent commentary>
Thanks for the responses, all three very interesting. (And depressing) I was thinking about this topic and the post I made, earlier today, I am in California right now and I just got home from an Indian casino. I was standing behind the table games, just viewing the whole scene, people-watching, and I was thinking to myself, "My goodness, how can any casino be worried about a few advantage players when there are SO many people like these?" Now granted, I am not in Vegas right now, I'm talking about Central California, but I'll tell you, I would bet a week's salary that there was not ONE proficient player where I was looking. I mean, there were hundreds and hundreds of people playing slots and keno, keno, keno! I would bet that the casino I was at could offer FPDW for all denominations on every one of their video poker machines, and I guarantee you 99% of the people there would be playing KENO! It's an amazing sight to behold, they love that video keno. So HOW on Earth can the casinos think they're going to get hurt by a few sharp players? It's pretty near-sighted of them to be sweatin it so much. But anyway, I hear what you guys are saying, that they don't reason like normal businesses do.
Thanks for the replies.
-BB
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "WP SF" <paladingamingllc@...> wrote:
EE hit it on the head. My thoughts exactly, almost to the letter.
REPLY: And I want to add my thanks to all three posters(BTB, EE, and P). An informative and civilized exchange of thoughts. Bravo! Let's do more of that. [While I'm here, ditto re Mickey Crimm's recent posts.]
The Gman
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:
Thanks for the responses, all three very interesting. (And depressing) I was thinking about this topic and the post I made, earlier today, I am in California right now and I just got home from an Indian casino. I was standing behind the table games, just viewing the whole scene, people-watching, and I was thinking to myself, "My goodness, how can any casino be worried about a few advantage players when there are SO many people like these?" *** > Thanks for the replies. -BB
......This comes from Al: "It was one of those times when the Pepp slipped the dollar full pay deuces back in. Miles and me were in playing them quite frequently. Tuna pretty much avoided the bank, but one day he did come in and play for about 6 hours. You know, he must have had about a dozen drinks but never tipped the coctail waitress once. And she was absolutely gorgeous!"
···
In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:
=====================================================
From the mid-90's until 2003, the Pepp was my Reno home. I made the
long trek from Chicago at least 2-3 times a year. Back in those days
the Pepp was positive, full pay Nirvana. Their VP inventory included FPDW and FPJW in denoms. from .25c to $1.00, with similiar plays for 10/7 DB, with a prog. in quarters.
The only problem with the great wild games was that the suits kept moving them around. One day they were there, and the next day they
were not. For stubborn players like me, this necessitated inspecting every machine in the joint, until I either found the good pay tables, or concluded that they had indeed been removed.
For a few years I continued to discover the new location of the
favored machines. Each time they were moved, some "shrinkage"
occured, and a few less of the good games remained. It occurred to
me that the Pepp management wished to be able to advertise that they
had great VP, but that they didn't want anyone to actually find
them, no less play them!
Finally, during the last year that I favored the Pepp with my
patronage, the positive pay tables were to found on one bank of
just four machines, located between the newly remodeled Restrooms,
and a large Sport's Bar with big screen TVs. This made it possible
to pound away on $1.00 FPDW, as you sipped a cool beverage, and
watched your favorite sport's event on TV. This obviously became a
very popular bank indeed.
When in Nevada, I usually arise before the first rooster crows.
Frequently, I am playing in the casino by 5:30 AM. Therefore, I
rarely had a problem getting on one of the great machines, early
in the morning. I would then stay on the machine as long as I
desired, by summoning a slot attendant (plentiful in those pre-TITO
days) to "watch my machine" while I took a short break. I always
made sure to tip the "watcher" genererously, in advance, so that my machine did not get "sold" to the highest bidder. {{O:
One morning, at around 7:00am, as I slipped another Bennie into an uncooperative machine on which I was playing .25c FPJW, and which
now owed me $300, an unkempt looking, middle aged man plopped down
next to me. After reading some of the recent posts, I believe that
it was Tuna, himself.
He was accompanied by three other younger, but equally rough looking
players. They were obviously ready to monopolize the positive bank.
But there were only THREE seats available for their use.
Since I was sitting at the second seat from the end, "Tuna" sat down
at the end seat, and two of the three others, sat on the other side
of me. They all selected $1.00 FPDW, feed in several Bennies at once,
and proceeded to play faster than any other humans I had ever watched
playing VP. It seemed to me as if they were all hitting $1,000 ducks every five minutes. None of them was in the least excited by all that
action.
After 20 minutes or so, they obviously got tired of waiting for me
to tap out, and give up the 4th machine. They decided to hasten my
departure by talking loudly to each other, and employing some of
bluest language heard since Andrew Dice Clay was a popular
entertainer. When that ploy didn't work, two them lit up cigarettes,
and began blowing smoke directly at me. This, plus the fact that I
had lost $500 on the "positive" bank, proved successful. I left the
machine. The 4th player was sitting in my seat, before I was
completely out of it.
I not only left my seat, but also left the Pepp. I grabbed a Taxi, rode downtown to the Cal Neva, where I found a .25c JOB prog. with
a $2500 prog. meter. Success is the best revenge! Twenty minutes
later the $2500 was part of my bankroll! {{O:
~Babe~
Sounds like a great guy. I'm sure the world will miss him.
Maybe he can be added the Ty Cobb wing of the VP hall of
fame.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@...> wrote:
After 20 minutes or so, they obviously
got tired of waiting for me to tap out,
and give up the 4th machine. They decided to
hasten my departure by talking loudly to each
other, and employing some of bluest language
heard since Andrew Dice Clay was a popular entertainer.
When that ploy didn't work, two them lit up cigarettes,
and began blowing smoke directly at me. This, plus
the fact that I had lost $500 on the "positive" bank,
proved successful. I left the machine. The 4th player
was sitting in my seat, before I was completely out of it.
Look familiar?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mgjy36QcRfQ
A younger Lund at the 1990 WSOP ME.
http://pokerati.com/2009/11/06/rip-hans-tuna-lund/
Chandler
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@...> wrote:
From the mid-90's until 2003, the Pepp was my Reno home. I made the
long trek from Chicago at least 2-3 times a year. Back in those days
the Pepp was positive, full pay Nirvana. Their VP inventory included FPDW and FPJW in denoms. from .25c to $1.00, with similiar plays for 10/7 DB, with a prog. in quarters.
Thanks for that, Chandler. Gosh, I wanted to puke 19 years ago, watching that now and I still want to puke. Gosh that was horrible, just horrible. Poor guy, y'gotta feel for him. Look at the expression on his face. There's no justice.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Chandler" <chandler_re@...> wrote:
A younger Lund at the 1990 WSOP ME.
http://pokerati.com/2009/11/06/rip-hans-tuna-lund/Chandler
It was a long time ago, and I was trying not to look to closely at
him. Frankly, he scared me a bit, and that's not easy to do.
The bearded, pudgy guy in the youtube video COULD have been him. But
I can't make a positive ID any more.
Thanks for the links.
~Babe~
···
======================================================
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Chandler" <chandler_re@...> wrote:
Look familiar?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mgjy36QcRfQ
A younger Lund at the 1990 WSOP ME.
http://pokerati.com/2009/11/06/rip-hans-tuna-lund/
Chandler
Hi Dennis!
You gave me my best laugh I've had all the day!
However, while the person that I encountered was very rude,
I would never put him the same category as Ty Cobb, who was
reputedly a drunken, womanizing, vicious racist and proud card
carrying member of the KKK.
As a matter of fact, one member of "Tuna's team" was not a
Caucasian and one was actually a.......WOMAN!
~Babe~
···
================================================
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, krajewski.sa@... wrote:
Sounds like a great guy. I'm sure the world will miss him.
Maybe he can be added the Ty Cobb wing of the VP hall of
fame.
I'm not sure I can agree with the "no justice" comment on a couple levels.
First off, on that hand, he was behind on every round except the turn, so I certainly wouldn't call that a bad beat. In those cases, I don't consider it an unlucky river that causes you to lose. I consider it an unlucky turn that got your hopes up. And it should be noted that all the money went in on the flop, when he was still behind. So you can't even say that it was a REALLY unlucky turn that put him ahead and CAUSED him to lose more chips.
Secondly, given the stories of him locking up banks whenever he can, but ratting out APs and plays to management if he got there too late and people wouldn't give him a seat or a cut doesn't really evoke a whole lot of sympathy from me.
Sure he sounds like a talented guy, and I certainly won't discredit that, but the fact is a talented a-hole is still an a-hole. I guess everyone can decide for themselves which quality is more important.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:
Thanks for that, Chandler. Gosh, I wanted to puke 19 years ago, watching that now and I still want to puke. Gosh that was horrible, just horrible. Poor guy, y'gotta feel for him. Look at the expression on his face. There's no justice.
Wow. What a bad beat! Thanks for the great link.
···
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Chandler <chandler_re@comcast.net> wrote:
A younger Lund at the 1990 WSOP ME.
http://pokerati. com/2009/ 11/06/rip- hans-tuna- lund/
Chandler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Well maybe there is justice;-) When the money went in he was a serious dog. Suck and resuck. Still, I feel the pain of a 2 outer on the river with the ME bracelet almost on his wrist. You can find the final hand on youtube. Tuna, short, open jams his 44 and runs into 66. Couldn't even get his money in against overs. Wasn't his day.
Chandler
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:
Thanks for that, Chandler. Gosh, I wanted to puke 19 years ago, watching that now and I still want to puke. Gosh that was horrible, just horrible. Poor guy, y'gotta feel for him. Look at the expression on his face. There's no justice.