vpFREE2 Forums

Guaranteed Play

Charles wrote ....

Anyway, I had to try the game once. Maybe this has already been
mentioned, but you get to choose between 6 games. And...if you
choose Deuces, you get 100 hands for $20 instead of 75. Choose Bonus
and you get 125 hands for $20. Choose Jacks and you get $150 hands
for $20.

So, using the JOB example, you have to pay $20 to play a 97.3% game ( the JOB offered is 8/5).?

I did a quick 20 session run on Winpoker, using 8/5 Job.? Here are the results ( in coins):

-70
-115
-75
110
-65
245
10
190
60
-55
-160
-10
-10
-20
-20
-80
-65
-90
275
-140
185

Out of 20 sessions,? only 4 were smaller losers if I were playing GVP.

Taking all 20 together, I would make 110 coins playing normally but would have been -530 on the GVP.

What the casino is hoping is that you put in $20 bill, that disappears and after you play 150 hands, you forget about the original $20 you put in and whatever comes out the machine is your 'win'.? It also prevents the 30% loss on a short session ( which will happen ).? 150 hands is $187.50 through the machine.? You are buying ( very expensive) downside protection.? $20 is all you can lose.?

Using Dunbar's excellent risk analyser, on 150 hands of 8/5 JOB, 36% of the time I will lose $20 or more.? But I am paying $20 to play 100% of the time.? I have a 1% chance of losing $60 or more.? I have a 10% chance of losing $40 to $60 and a 25% chance of losing $20 to $40.

There might be some opportunities to 'book' this bet for your friends.

···

________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I count 21 entries on your list, not 20.

I'm not sure that the math is right on this unless I'm missing something. If you look at your list, every session that results in you "losing" would be -20 coins. Every session that results in you "winning" would be winnings - 20 coins.

Looking at your list of sessions, it seems that you would start off -220 coins (it's 21 sessions, not 20). Every "negative" session would be a 0 (you can't lose more than the 20 coins to "buy" the session), leaving only the positive sessions. I count +1075 coins, less the 220 coins used to "buy" the sessions, leaving a gain of 850 coins.

I'm not saying these games are the right play, only that I think there needs to be a careful analysis of them coupled with tweaks in optimum play as a result of the different format to reach a conclusion.

···

From: greeklandjohnny@aol.com
Reply-To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
To: vpfree@yahoogroups.com, vpfree_Detroit@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Guaranteed Play
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:34:07 -0400

Charles wrote ....

Anyway, I had to try the game once. Maybe this has already been
mentioned, but you get to choose between 6 games. And...if you
choose Deuces, you get 100 hands for $20 instead of 75. Choose Bonus
and you get 125 hands for $20. Choose Jacks and you get $150 hands
for $20.

So, using the JOB example, you have to pay $20 to play a 97.3% game ( the JOB offered is 8/5).?

I did a quick 20 session run on Winpoker, using 8/5 Job.? Here are the results ( in coins):

-70
-115
-75
110
-65
245
10
190
60
-55
-160
-10
-20
-80
-65
-90
275
-140
185

Out of 20 sessions,? only 4 were smaller losers if I were playing GVP.

Taking all 20 together, I would make 110 coins playing normally but would have been -530 on the GVP.

What the casino is hoping is that you put in $20 bill, that disappears and after you play 150 hands, you forget about the original $20 you put in and whatever comes out the machine is your 'win'.? It also prevents the 30% loss on a short session ( which will happen ).? 150 hands is $187.50 through the machine.? You are buying ( very expensive) downside protection.? $20 is all you can lose.?

Using Dunbar's excellent risk analyser, on 150 hands of 8/5 JOB, 36% of the time I will lose $20 or more.? But I am paying $20 to play 100% of the time.? I have a 1% chance of losing $60 or more.? I have a 10% chance of losing $40 to $60 and a 25% chance of losing $20 to $40.

There might be some opportunities to 'book' this bet for your friends.

________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

_________________________________________________________________
Learn.Laugh.Share. Reallivemoms is right place! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us

Damn e-mail, can't "unsend". That should be -420 as a starting point, not -220 and 650 coins, not 850.

···

From: "David Silvus" <djsilvus@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Guaranteed Play
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:21:56 -0500

I count 21 entries on your list, not 20.

I'm not sure that the math is right on this unless I'm missing something.
If you look at your list, every session that results in you "losing" would
be -20 coins. Every session that results in you "winning" would be winnings
- 20 coins.

Looking at your list of sessions, it seems that you would start off -220
coins (it's 21 sessions, not 20). Every "negative" session would be a 0
(you can't lose more than the 20 coins to "buy" the session), leaving only
the positive sessions. I count +1075 coins, less the 220 coins used to
"buy" the sessions, leaving a gain of 850 coins.

I'm not saying these games are the right play, only that I think there needs
to be a careful analysis of them coupled with tweaks in optimum play as a
result of the different format to reach a conclusion.

From: greeklandjohnny@aol.com
Reply-To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
To: vpfree@yahoogroups.com, vpfree_Detroit@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Guaranteed Play
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:34:07 -0400

Charles wrote ....

Anyway, I had to try the game once. Maybe this has already been
mentioned, but you get to choose between 6 games. And...if you
choose Deuces, you get 100 hands for $20 instead of 75. Choose Bonus
and you get 125 hands for $20. Choose Jacks and you get $150 hands
for $20.

So, using the JOB example, you have to pay $20 to play a 97.3% game ( the
JOB offered is 8/5).?

I did a quick 20 session run on Winpoker, using 8/5 Job.? Here are the
results ( in coins):

-70
-115
-75
110
-65
245
10
190
60
-55
-160
-10
-20
-80
-65
-90
275
-140
185

Out of 20 sessions,? only 4 were smaller losers if I were playing GVP.

Taking all 20 together, I would make 110 coins playing normally but would
have been -530 on the GVP.

What the casino is hoping is that you put in $20 bill, that disappears and
after you play 150 hands, you forget about the original $20 you put in and
whatever comes out the machine is your 'win'.? It also prevents the 30% loss
on a short session ( which will happen ).? 150 hands is $187.50 through the
machine.? You are buying ( very expensive) downside protection.? $20 is all
you can lose.?

Using Dunbar's excellent risk analyser, on 150 hands of 8/5 JOB, 36% of the
time I will lose $20 or more.? But I am paying $20 to play 100% of the
time.? I have a 1% chance of losing $60 or more.? I have a 10% chance of
losing $40 to $60 and a 25% chance of losing $20 to $40.

There might be some opportunities to 'book' this bet for your friends.

________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
http://mail.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

_________________________________________________________________
Learn.Laugh.Share. Reallivemoms is right place!
http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us

_________________________________________________________________
Messenger Caf� � open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served daily. Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_AugHMtagline

Damn e-mail, can't "unsend". That should be -420 as a starting

point, not

-220 and 650 coins, not 850.

From: "David Silvus" <djsilvus@...>
Reply-To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Guaranteed Play
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:21:56 -0500

I count 21 entries on your list, not 20.

I'm not sure that the math is right on this unless I'm missing

something.

If you look at your list, every session that results in

you "losing" would

be -20 coins. Every session that results in you "winning" would be

winnings

- 20 coins.

Looking at your list of sessions, it seems that you would start

off -220

coins (it's 21 sessions, not 20). Every "negative" session would

be a 0

(you can't lose more than the 20 coins to "buy" the session),

leaving only

the positive sessions. I count +1075 coins, less the 220 coins

used to

"buy" the sessions, leaving a gain of 850 coins.

I'm not saying these games are the right play, only that I think

there needs

to be a careful analysis of them coupled with tweaks in optimum

play as a

result of the different format to reach a conclusion.

From: greeklandjohnny@...
Reply-To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
To: vpfree@yahoogroups.com, vpfree_Detroit@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Guaranteed Play
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:34:07 -0400

Charles wrote ....

Anyway, I had to try the game once. Maybe this has already been
mentioned, but you get to choose between 6 games. And...if you
choose Deuces, you get 100 hands for $20 instead of 75. Choose Bonus
and you get 125 hands for $20. Choose Jacks and you get $150 hands
for $20.

So, using the JOB example, you have to pay $20 to play a 97.3% game

( the

JOB offered is 8/5).?

I did a quick 20 session run on Winpoker, using 8/5 Job.? Here are

the

results ( in coins):

-70
-115
-75
110
-65
245
10
190
60
-55
-160
-10
-10
-20
-20
-80
-65
-90
275
-140
185

Out of 20 sessions,? only 4 were smaller losers if I were playing

GVP.

Taking all 20 together, I would make 110 coins playing normally but

would

have been -530 on the GVP.

What the casino is hoping is that you put in $20 bill, that

disappears and

after you play 150 hands, you forget about the original $20 you put

in and

whatever comes out the machine is your 'win'.? It also prevents the

30% loss

on a short session ( which will happen ).? 150 hands is $187.50

through the

machine.? You are buying ( very expensive) downside protection.?

$20 is all

you can lose.?

Using Dunbar's excellent risk analyser, on 150 hands of 8/5 JOB,

36% of the

time I will lose $20 or more.? But I am paying $20 to play 100% of

the

time.? I have a 1% chance of losing $60 or more.? I have a 10%

chance of

losing $40 to $60 and a 25% chance of losing $20 to $40.

There might be some opportunities to 'book' this bet for your

friends.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "David Silvus" <djsilvus@...> wrote:

______________________________________________________________________
__

Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL

Mail! -

http://mail.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

_________________________________________________________________
Learn.Laugh.Share. Reallivemoms is right place!
http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us

_________________________________________________________________
Messenger Café — open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities

served daily.

Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_AugHMtagline

You start each $20 session minus 80 credits not 20. I am sure the
results shown above are in credits not dollars. If those are the real
results which is far better than average playing 8/5 jacks I count
+100 normal -605 GVP. If the "-10s" are typoed by being entered twice
then the +110, -530 shown above is right. If it is 20 sessions of 150
hands that is a total of 3000 hands losing an extra 640 coins or
4.27% of the normal 5 coin bets for 3000 hands. Since the results are
better than average the extra hold will also be far higher than
average but it should be obvious that this is a bad game and the
extra loss will be less the worse the pay table and also the poorer
the player to whom this game is obviously trying to lure.

So far the posts on this subject are trying to analyze the game
assuming "normal" strategy. That is a huge mistake.

  As an example, let's assume you had -40 credits with one hand to
play. You are dealt Qh Jh Th 5h 3h. "Normal" strategy says to hold the
flush. Whether you got 25 or 30 credits for the flush, your score would
still be minus. The smarter play would be to hold 'QJT' and hope for the
3-in-1,081 chance for getting a straight flush or royal flush. It's not
a very big chance, but holding all five cards gives you no chance at
all.

  This is not a simple game to analyze as the strategy changes
slightly with exactly how minus your score is and how many hands you
have left. There is a quitting strategy as well. If you were foolish
enough to buy 100 hands of 8/5 Jacks or Better and hit a royal after
five hands, you're better off cashing out and forfeiting the other 95
hands. 95 hands of 25¢ 8/5 Jacks will cost you $3.20 on average. Players
who think they've already paid for them so should play them are not
thinking clearly. Once you're ahead, the hands are no long pre-paid. You
are paying real money for each hand.

  In the case presented it should be obvious that you should quit.
But what if you were ahead $5 with 95 hands to play? Keeping going costs
you $3.20. But who would pay $20 if they planned to quit when they were
ahead $5 (i.e. down $15 overall)? It's not a simple calculation and
emotional arguments get in the way.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

There is a quitting strategy as well. If you were foolish
enough to buy 100 hands of 8/5 Jacks or Better and hit a royal after
five hands, you're better off cashing out and forfeiting the other 95
hands.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@...> wrote:
++++++++++++++
So you can cash out before you have played all of the pre-paid hands?

Yes, you can leave any time.

···

On 8/23/07, donna461973 <hhall@houston.rr.com> wrote:

  --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>, "Bob Dancer" <
bob.dancer@...> wrote:
>
> There is a quitting strategy as well. If you were foolish
> enough to buy 100 hands of 8/5 Jacks or Better and hit a royal after
> five hands, you're better off cashing out and forfeiting the other 95
> hands.

++++++++++++++
So you can cash out before you have played all of the pre-paid hands?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob said, "This is not a simple game to analyze...."

Someone, somewhere, had to analyze this game and had to
come up with the payback percentages for the various games.
Otherwise, how would Station Casinos know if they would
make money or lose money in the long run?

If they can analyze the game, then so could someone else.

Of course, it the game may be gone by the time someone does
come up with the optimal strategy. I was at Sunset Station last
Friday through Sunday. I saw (what seemed like) 100 or more
of these machines, but not one single person playing one of them.

···

On 8/23/07, Bob Dancer <bob.dancer@compdance.com> wrote:

       So far the posts on this subject are trying to analyze the game
assuming "normal" strategy. That is a huge mistake.

       As an example, let's assume you had -40 credits with one hand to
play. You are dealt Qh Jh Th 5h 3h. "Normal" strategy says to hold the
flush. Whether you got 25 or 30 credits for the flush, your score would
still be minus. The smarter play would be to hold 'QJT' and hope for the
3-in-1,081 chance for getting a straight flush or royal flush. It's not
a very big chance, but holding all five cards gives you no chance at
all.

       This is not a simple game to analyze as the strategy changes
slightly with exactly how minus your score is and how many hands you
have left. There is a quitting strategy as well. If you were foolish
enough to buy 100 hands of 8/5 Jacks or Better and hit a royal after
five hands, you're better off cashing out and forfeiting the other 95
hands. 95 hands of 25¢ 8/5 Jacks will cost you $3.20 on average. Players
who think they've already paid for them so should play them are not
thinking clearly. Once you're ahead, the hands are no long pre-paid. You
are paying real money for each hand.

       In the case presented it should be obvious that you should quit.
But what if you were ahead $5 with 95 hands to play? Keeping going costs
you $3.20. But who would pay $20 if they planned to quit when they were
ahead $5 (i.e. down $15 overall)? It's not a simple calculation and
emotional arguments get in the way.

Bob Dancer

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have played this game many times live in quarters and dollars and
different versions of video poker - perhaps like ten times and have won
only once. It should be obvious they would not offer this unless they
felt it would make the casinos more money than normal video poker.

Bob Dancer hit the strategy issue right on the head - I think optimum
strategy is going to be like multistrike which is holding different
hands different way depeneding on the level (MS) or how many hands are
left (GP) - and I think the correct strategy will be more complicated
than multistrike.

One think all to be aware of for any version of the game you are
playing where you are plus a number than is large enough to buy another
round of hands and the number of hands you can buy on a new purchase is
larger than the number of hands you have left, you should cash out.

Umm, by putting it out on the floor and seeing how it does? No doubt
if it is beatable, some burn out artist will make that very clear to
them in short order. If they don't get enough play to justify the
floor space, they may try loosening the paytables a bit and seeing
what happens, or adding some special promotion, but usually they just
dump the machines. It's probably really IGT who's test marketing the
machines and taking all the risk. No doubt they've got some fancy
hedge involving the Yen carry trade, the Greenspan/Bernanke put, the
Chinese nuclear option, and whether Bud or Bud Light will win the Bud
halftime bowl next year.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Luke Fuller" <kungalooosh@...> wrote:

Someone, somewhere, had to analyze this game and had to
come up with the payback percentages for the various games.
Otherwise, how would Station Casinos know if they would
make money or lose money in the long run?

Umm, casinos are not going to put 100's of machines on the floor
without knowing before hand what their profit is supposed to be.

···

On 8/24/07, nightoftheiguana2000 <nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Luke Fuller" <kungalooosh@...> wrote:
> Someone, somewhere, had to analyze this game and had to
> come up with the payback percentages for the various games.
> Otherwise, how would Station Casinos know if they would
> make money or lose money in the long run?

Umm, by putting it out on the floor and seeing how it does? No doubt
if it is beatable, some burn out artist will make that very clear to
them in short order. If they don't get enough play to justify the
floor space, they may try loosening the paytables a bit and seeing
what happens, or adding some special promotion, but usually they just
dump the machines. It's probably really IGT who's test marketing the
machines and taking all the risk. No doubt they've got some fancy
hedge involving the Yen carry trade, the Greenspan/Bernanke put, the
Chinese nuclear option, and whether Bud or Bud Light will win the Bud
halftime bowl next year.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Actually, IGT had to analyze it and prove it to Gaming before the machines were licensed. This is the case with EVERY game on the floor.

···

At 07:55 PM 8/23/2007, you wrote:

Bob said, "This is not a simple game to analyze...."

Someone, somewhere, had to analyze this game and had to
come up with the payback percentages for the various games.
Otherwise, how would Station Casinos know if they would
make money or lose money in the long run?

If they can analyze the game, then so could someone else.

Of course, it the game may be gone by the time someone does
come up with the optimal strategy. I was at Sunset Station last
Friday through Sunday. I saw (what seemed like) 100 or more
of these machines, but not one single person playing one of them.

On 8/23/07, Bob Dancer <bob.dancer@compdance.com> wrote:
>
> So far the posts on this subject are trying to analyze the game
> assuming "normal" strategy. That is a huge mistake.
>
> As an example, let's assume you had -40 credits with one hand to
> play. You are dealt Qh Jh Th 5h 3h. "Normal" strategy says to hold the
> flush. Whether you got 25 or 30 credits for the flush, your score would
> still be minus. The smarter play would be to hold 'QJT' and hope for the
> 3-in-1,081 chance for getting a straight flush or royal flush. It's not
> a very big chance, but holding all five cards gives you no chance at
> all.
>
> This is not a simple game to analyze as the strategy changes
> slightly with exactly how minus your score is and how many hands you
> have left. There is a quitting strategy as well. If you were foolish
> enough to buy 100 hands of 8/5 Jacks or Better and hit a royal after
> five hands, you're better off cashing out and forfeiting the other 95
> hands. 95 hands of 25¢ 8/5 Jacks will cost you $3.20 on average. Players
> who think they've already paid for them so should play them are not
> thinking clearly. Once you're ahead, the hands are no long pre-paid. You
> are paying real money for each hand.
>
> In the case presented it should be obvious that you should quit.
> But what if you were ahead $5 with 95 hands to play? Keeping going costs
> you $3.20. But who would pay $20 if they planned to quit when they were
> ahead $5 (i.e. down $15 overall)? It's not a simple calculation and
> emotional arguments get in the way.
>
> Bob Dancer
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

Casinos make mistakes all the time...sometimes in the players favor.
For example, offering full pay (100%+) machines at high
denominations...remember the $100 FPDW at CP...or having overlapping
promotions...card readers giving too many points...these are just a
few examples.

I think you may be giving the casinos too much credit.

Any forecasted profit is predicated upon assumptions, which may or
may not happen. It looks like they way, way, way over-estimated
player reaction to the guaranteed play. In the Stations and Fiestas
I've been to, there are "tons" of these machines with very few
players.

I understand these are the new generation server based games...which
means they should be able to change them back to VP/slots that are
more acceptable to their customer base. And rather quickly.

Don the Dentist

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Luke Fuller" <kungalooosh@...> wrote:

Umm, casinos are not going to put 100's of machines on the floor
without knowing before hand what their profit is supposed to be.

Bill Coleman wrote: Actually, IGT had to analyze it and prove it to
Gaming before the machines were licensed. This is
the case with EVERY game on the floor.

Correct. Except that it was analyzed by the game designer, Walker
Digital Gaming, before it was every sold to IGT. According to Jay
Walker, principle owner of WDG, the computer-and-programming costs to
get the numbers in this game were in the tens of millions of dollars.
IGT has very skilled mathematicians with a big budget for computer
software when required. This particular game taxed their resources
considerably.

It is possible, I suppose, that someone in the player community has the
ability, interest, and resources to analyze this game, but I doubt it.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

I don't think that's right. There are times you should cash out, but
that's not the right criterion.

Consider 100 plays of quarter 9/6 Jacks for $20. Firstly, you
shouldn't be playing, since it's a losing game, but let's suppose that
comps make up for that, and we'll ignore the effect of comps here.

So you start with 0 credits, 100 hands of "insurance", and -80 credits
in hand (you paid $20 for this situation).

Suppose you hit quads on the first hand (25 bets, 125 coins); now you
have 120 credits, 99 hands, and -80 credits in hand; overall you have
40 credits and 99 hands of insurance.

If you cash out and start a new session, you then have 0 credits on
the machine, 100 hands of insurance, and -40 credits in hand (your 120
credit win, less the original 80 credits to start, and 80 credits for
the "rebuy"). Overall, you have -40 credits and 100 hands of
insurance. That extra *one* hand of insurance cost you an extra 80
credits ($20). Ouch!

I think you have to put a value on insurance. I don't think it will be
what it costs you (that would be easy to figure out), I think it will
be some formula that figures its worth to you (>= what it costs, or
you wouldn't play this game). Boy this is confusing!

- Mike

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "caplatinum" <belairgold@...> wrote:

One think all to be aware of for any version of the game you are
playing where you are plus a number than is large enough to buy
another round of hands and the number of hands you can buy on a new
purchase is larger than the number of hands you have left, you
should cash out.

Correct. Except that it was analyzed by the game designer, Walker
Digital Gaming, before it was every sold to IGT. According to Jay
Walker, principle owner of WDG, the computer-and-programming costs to
get the numbers in this game were in the tens of millions of dollars.

That sounds sus to me. Surely you can just brute force hundreds of
players playing a wide variety of strategies for a lot less than that
sort of money.

IGT has very skilled mathematicians with a big budget for computer
software when required. This particular game taxed their resources
considerably.

Well, if that's true, then what I say next hasn't much chance of being
right.

It seems to me that you should *never* "rebuy" (cash out early). I'm
assuming that the game is positive expected value, considering comps,
cash back, and your "entertainment value", so even after a royal
flush, you should play out the remainder of your $20 as the start of
the next royal cycle. So when you cash out, you use it to buy more
plays (look at these as insurance, or better yet at opportunities for
drawing a royal flush.) Rebuys are just too expensive.

The key here is that the number of plays per dollar is fixed. Lets say
that the best you could hope for on a Jacks or better style of game is
400 plays for $20 (quarter game, 5 credits per bet). So that's a cost
of 5 cents per play. If you play regular strategy, the royal cycle
will be about 40,000 plays, for a cost of 40,000/400 * 20 = $2000 to
buy a $1000 jackpot.

The 5c per play cost is regardless of the strategy you use; you can be
as wild as you like with the strategy; there is no extra cost for wild
strategies, as there is for regular play. For example, playing a
"royal or bust" strategy shortens the cycle from say 40,000 to perhaps
half that (I can't find the actual figure quickly, perhaps 28,000 is
more realistic), but at regular games, it costs you an arm and a leg
because you are breaking hands like quad tens to keep one of the tens
(1 to a royal). If you could play a stragegy wild enough to bring the
cycle length down to 20,000 plays per royal, it becomes break even
(neglecting cash back etc).

So I believe the right stragegy is close to that: play *every* play
for the maximum chance of a royal flush. A lot of the time, you will
be throwing away 5 cards, whether they are paying or not. This
guarantees the minimum number of times you pay the $20 tax to keep
playing. Only a royal flush will bring you positive enough to end the
cycle.

I do see one possible exception to this: in the rare cases where you
are up whatever it cost you, you have the opportunity to have a
winning session, which can reduce your overall cost. Suppose you are
up 100 credits and it costs 80 credits for a rebuy; perhaps you should
switch to regular strategy towards the end of a set of 400 hands to
"protect" your profit. This will cut back dramatically on your chances
of a royal for those plays, but with the profit you can buy more wild
strategy opportunities at 5c per play.

Perhaps you really want the optimal strategy to produce a profit of 16
bets (your $20 investment) or more over 400 hands. If you are down 80
bets with 50 plays to go, you need a strategy that maximises the
chances of winning 96 bets profit (your 16 bet investment plus your
accumulated loss of 10 bets) in those 50 plays. That might mean
playing initially for any quads or higher (keep only pairs, trips, or
dealt quads, and perhaps 4SF and 4RF), switching to straight flush or
better in the middle (keep (guessing) 67s over an ace), and finally
playing royal or bust (keep only the ace from an ace-low straight flush).

Then again, keeping the straight flush when your goal is 96 bets will
get you half way to your goal, and you can probably switch to a less
wild strategy to make the the other half. Tricky.

OK, I can begin to see where you might be able to spend $10M on
analysing this. I still think I could do it for a fair bit less, though.

- Mike

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@...> wrote:

Bob, the PAR sheets are on file with the Gaming Commission for this
game for every paytable variation licensed. They are public record,
and can be obtained with a little effort.

INFO for other VP members: PAR sheets are a report of the play
expected on a machine, and are complied from millions of hands. The
PAR sheet details every hand played during testing, its payout,
expected frequency, and expected return. The actual PAR report can be
hundreds of pages thick, this game likely has a PAR report that would
fill a footlocker. The front sheet summary is the page we are
interested in. It contains the expected payout, paytable analyzed,
machine identity and EPROM identity codes.

It is not in Bob's interest to fully inform the VP members here of the
true payback and expected return on these games. He is a paid
consultant for the industry side, and needs to protect this income
source. He sells merchandise to the VP player community and needs to
protect this income source. Frankly, he plays both sides against the
middle, and knows better than to crap where he eats.

I did not misspell any words, I type with an accent!!!

wcanevari@yahoo.com

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@...> wrote:

Bill Coleman wrote: Actually, IGT had to analyze it and prove it to
Gaming before the machines were licensed. This is
the case with EVERY game on the floor.

Correct. Except that it was analyzed by the game designer, Walker
Digital Gaming, before it was every sold to IGT. According to Jay
Walker, principle owner of WDG, the computer-and-programming costs to
get the numbers in this game were in the tens of millions of dollars.
IGT has very skilled mathematicians with a big budget for computer
software when required. This particular game taxed their resources
considerably.

It is possible, I suppose, that someone in the player community has the
ability, interest, and resources to analyze this game, but I doubt it.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

EPROM identity codes? Not a computer guy, but have a question. Might
these identity codes sort of be a key to enter the program; thus
allowing one to alter programing. Maybe I'm thinking of source code?
Or is it not nesessary for a computer person who knows how to change
things?

Wondering? Jeep
.
.
.--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "William Canevari" <wcanevari@...>
wrote:

Bob, the PAR sheets are on file with the Gaming Commission for this
game for every paytable variation licensed. They are public record,
and can be obtained with a little effort.

INFO for other VP members: PAR sheets are a report of the play
expected on a machine, and are complied from millions of hands.

The

PAR sheet details every hand played during testing, its payout,
expected frequency, and expected return. The actual PAR report

can be

hundreds of pages thick, this game likely has a PAR report that

would

fill a footlocker. The front sheet summary is the page we are
interested in. It contains the expected payout, paytable analyzed,
machine identity and EPROM identity codes.

It is not in Bob's interest to fully inform the VP members here of

the

true payback and expected return on these games. He is a paid
consultant for the industry side, and needs to protect this income
source. He sells merchandise to the VP player community and needs

to

protect this income source. Frankly, he plays both sides against

the

···

middle, and knows better than to crap where he eats.

I did not misspell any words, I type with an accent!!!

wcanevari@...

According to Jay

Walker, principle owner of WDG, the computer-and-programming costs to
get the numbers in this game were in the tens of millions of dollars.
IGT has very skilled mathematicians with a big budget for computer
software when required. This particular game taxed their resources
considerably.
Bob Dancer

Bob

I agree you have a lot of knoledge of developing new ideas as you
write a lot and did a lot of work getting your software to market. I'm
sure it was no easy task. A question for you about costs at WDG and a
big question at the end.

I haven't seen the game in queation. Do you believe WDG spent those
numbers? Think back to when IGT (Sircoma) first made a game from
scratch. Do you think they spent even $50,000 (software and hardware)
developing the first game? I can remember 1 Delaware, 1 Pennsylvania
and 2 New Jersey companies that designed and actually manufactured vp
games for down the shore in the amusement arcades. These were little
almost "back yard" companies with 5-15 employees. One could watch
the flow solder machines attaching the parts into the board. In those
days you could get a custom made game board at a cost effective price
for as little a $400 with a 100 board run. One guy I used to know was
so proud of an electronic parking meter he made. It had an electric
eye on it that would sense when car pulled out and would reset meter
to 0 time. He probably made a nice buck on that one. These were folks
who did good things on the cheap. Perhaps watching this nitch
electronic industry grow, from black and white tvs in cabinets till
now, has skewed my thinking in that I think they lie about the high
costs to bring games to market.

I will agree that IGT spends a bundle on developement in one way. In
order to stop upstarts (the little guys) they probably have a team
designing concepts and protecting every conceivable idea by copywrite
(or however they protect their ideas). When Joe the backyard
electronic guy comes up with an idea, he can't use it. I think the big
company has already reserved the idea or something close enough to let
the lawyers lock out Joe. In addition, regulations of certification
and testing add a lot to development costs; especially since it's not
done in house.

You carefully worded your statment with,"According to Jay Walker" the
costs were tens of millions. It seemed to me you sort of didn't
believe they spent that much. Sometime I get tired of hearing these
companies sob stories of the high cost of development. It's like they
are magic and their 10s of millions allow them to walk on water. Do
they really spend that kind of $$?

The BIG question; Could a regular guy go to any big game maker with an
idea and would they let him make a buck or would they just toss him
out on his ear? Are all the good game ideas used up?

Cheers...Jeep

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@...> wrote:

I'd say these are just checksums. When you get a big jackpot, a tech
sometimes has to come out, pop the eproms into a reader, and they
record the checksums found before they pay you.

I think it's like MD5 sums on software; you want the "correct" codes
to be as widely disseminated as possible.

However, if you were up to mischief, I suppose that you would want
your altered code to checksum to the "correct" value, so from that
point of view, I'm a little surprised that they publish them. A
checksum is easy to adjust; maybe it's more like a cryptographic key
that is fakable only with supreme computational effort.

In no way will it be any sort of key to any sort of backdoor or even
"supervisor mode".

- Mike

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "whitejeeps" <whitejeeps@...> wrote:

EPROM identity codes? Not a computer guy, but have a question. Might
these identity codes sort of be a key to enter the program; thus
allowing one to alter programing. Maybe I'm thinking of source code?
Or is it not nesessary for a computer person who knows how to change
things?