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Greektown and Bob Dancer

I read with interest the the recent postings about Greektown and Bob Dancer's work with them.

I am one of the Greektown 9 and one of two who has not been reinstated. The events took place in November 2002 so it's about 3.5 years ago. I'm not going to rehash the event, but I will add my perspective to the discussion.

I think there are a couple of reasons why I wasn't reinstated. Back in early 2002, Greektown used to run some pretty good promotions. One particular promotion attracted an out of state professional team. This team had been in the Detroit area on several other occassions. I have no issue with that. On the first drawing night, Greektown computers had a problem and they would only issue a maximum of 25 tickets to the drawing. I think it took $200 coin in to get a ticket so that was a pretty limiting rule. When the drawing took place, the leader of this team won 3 of the first 5 prizes. My guess is that he had more than 25 tickets in the drum.

Now, if you are an advantage player and have an edge over the casino, that's fine. If you are not playing by the rules in drawing that I am also playing, you are stealing money out of my pocket. I talked to the vp of player development and told her what I thought was happening. Somehow this person was acquiring many more tickets than one player could get. The drawing mentioned specifically that you had to be playing on your own card only.

About a week later , one of the members of this team was escorted out of Greektown in handcuffs and I didn't see the rest of them around for quite a while. I think this person is the other member of the Greektown 9 who was not reinstated. Somehow, I think Greektown associates me with that team. This is speculation on my part. No good deed goes unpunished.

Second reason might be that I challenged a billboard that Greektown put up on I-94 near Detroit Metro airport. The whole event is cronicled on vpfree_detroit if anyone wants to read the history. Quick summary was that their billboard stated over 100% return on 9/6 JOB. They came up with that by including a rather generous .498% comp rate. Since my comps had been revoked, this struck a nerve with me. I first contacted Greektown and they politely told me to go pound sand. I then filed with Michigan Gaming Control Board and sent Greektown a copy. Greektown again said they believe their method of calculating return is proper. What this Greektown employee didn't know is that about 2 days after my first letter to Greektown, the billboard came down. I wrote her back and let her know that. MGCB ultimately ruled that Greektown could advertise the return with the comp rate included. The funny part is all they had to do was say " Pick 'Em" instead of '9/6 JOB" and they have been fine. My understanding is that this lady does not work for Greektown anymore.

As for Bob Dancer, I believe that in his discussion with Greektown my name was mentioned and Greektown decided not to offer me the same olive branch they extended to the other barred players. I have thanked Bob for his efforts with Greektown on my behalf. I think it's great that Greektown is trying to improve their offerings and I think hiring Bob Dancer is a great step in that direction. My wife and I have offered about 30 suggestions to Greektown over the years and they implemented quite a few of them. This is another reason the barring was a bitter pill me.

In Bob's reply to Brian he says

" The current management's position is that they are embarrassed by that particular incident --- which they agree was handled very poorly. All they can do now is to move on. They cannot go back and
un-do it, even though they would like to. They are hoping that by offering good games and promotions, eventually people will decide to come back."

Here's where I will disagree. I had a comp balance of about $4000. I had a $40 coupon voucher they mailed me the week before I was barred. Greektown could very easily tell me today " John, we are sorry for what happened. That management team is no longer part of Greektown. We will be happy to remove the trepass order against you and will issue you your comp balance of $4000. We will also cash in your $40 coupon and have you and your wife as guests in our suite for the first game of the Detroit Red Wings playoff run."

I agree they can't undo the barring incident but they can correct some of the damage done. Greektown is making a business decision that the $4500 it would cost to do this is not money well spent. Here's where some of the old Greektown thinking surfaces again.

I'll also agree that Greektown has a very competitive video poker product for the area. When people ask me about the casinos and where to play, I tell them Greektown has the best quarter vp and a very nice set up. I NEVER mention to anyone that I was kicked out of Greektown. If people ask, I will tell that but I don't make it a point to advertise it.

As for my Detroit area play, I can play dollar pick 'em at MGM. If I hadn't been barred for Greektown would I still be playing there? Probably. The year I was barred I lost a fortune playing nickel 50 play 8/5 bonus poker.

In summary, good luck to Greektown. Detroit can certainly use the tax money. With the set up they have, they could be the best casino in the Midwest and line up favorably in Las Vegas. They are like the Lions; lots of talent, lots of potential but always doing something silly and not winning the game. I hope they listen to Bob.

···

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Zaroff, John" <John.G.Zaroff@...>
wrote:

I read with interest the the recent postings about Greektown and

Bob Dancer's work with them.

I am one of the Greektown 9 and one of two who has not been

reinstated. The events took place in November 2002 so it's about
3.5 years ago. I'm not going to rehash the event, but I will add my
perspective to the discussion.

I think there are a couple of reasons why I wasn't reinstated.

Back in early 2002, Greektown used to run some pretty good
promotions. One particular promotion attracted an out of state
professional team. This team had been in the Detroit area on
several other occassions. I have no issue with that. On the first
drawing night, Greektown computers had a problem and they would only
issue a maximum of 25 tickets to the drawing. I think it took $200
coin in to get a ticket so that was a pretty limiting rule. When
the drawing took place, the leader of this team won 3 of the first 5
prizes. My guess is that he had more than 25 tickets in the drum.

Now, if you are an advantage player and have an edge over the

casino, that's fine. If you are not playing by the rules in drawing
that I am also playing, you are stealing money out of my pocket. I
talked to the vp of player development and told her what I thought
was happening. Somehow this person was acquiring many more tickets
than one player could get. The drawing mentioned specifically that
you had to be playing on your own card only.

About a week later , one of the members of this team was escorted

out of Greektown in handcuffs and I didn't see the rest of them
around for quite a while. I think this person is the other member
of the Greektown 9 who was not reinstated. Somehow, I think
Greektown associates me with that team. This is speculation on my
part. No good deed goes unpunished.

Thanks for telling us about the Greektown Tragedy, John. That team
leader was brain dead for not spreading the tickets around. He
deserves 20 years at hard labor for passing himself off as a
professional.

Thanks for the perspective John. I have followed this story with interest
since you broke it here some years ago.

Chandler

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com]On Behalf Of
Zaroff, John
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 11:32 PM
To: vpfree@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Greektown and Bob Dancer

I read with interest the the recent postings about Greektown and Bob
Dancer's work with them.

I am one of the Greektown 9 and one of two who has not been reinstated. The
events took place in November 2002 so it's about 3.5 years ago. I'm not
going to rehash the event, but I will add my perspective to the discussion.

I think there are a couple of reasons why I wasn't reinstated. Back in
early 2002, Greektown used to run some pretty good promotions. One
particular promotion attracted an out of state professional team. This team
had been in the Detroit area on several other occassions. I have no issue
with that. On the first drawing night, Greektown computers had a problem
and they would only issue a maximum of 25 tickets to the drawing. I think
it took $200 coin in to get a ticket so that was a pretty limiting rule.
When the drawing took place, the leader of this team won 3 of the first 5
prizes. My guess is that he had more than 25 tickets in the drum.

Now, if you are an advantage player and have an edge over the casino, that's
fine. If you are not playing by the rules in drawing that I am also
playing, you are stealing money out of my pocket. I talked to the vp of
player development and told her what I thought was happening. Somehow this
person was acquiring many more tickets than one player could get. The
drawing mentioned specifically that you had to be playing on your own card
only.

About a week later , one of the members of this team was escorted out of
Greektown in handcuffs and I didn't see the rest of them around for quite a
while. I think this person is the other member of the Greektown 9 who was
not reinstated. Somehow, I think Greektown associates me with that team.
This is speculation on my part. No good deed goes unpunished.

Second reason might be that I challenged a billboard that Greektown put up
on I-94 near Detroit Metro airport. The whole event is cronicled on
vpfree_detroit if anyone wants to read the history. Quick summary was that
their billboard stated over 100% return on 9/6 JOB. They came up with that
by including a rather generous .498% comp rate. Since my comps had been
revoked, this struck a nerve with me. I first contacted Greektown and they
politely told me to go pound sand. I then filed with Michigan Gaming
Control Board and sent Greektown a copy. Greektown again said they believe
their method of calculating return is proper. What this Greektown employee
didn't know is that about 2 days after my first letter to Greektown, the
billboard came down. I wrote her back and let her know that. MGCB
ultimately ruled that Greektown could advertise the return with the comp
rate included. The funny part is all they had to do was say " Pick 'Em"
instead of '9/6 JOB" and they have been fine. My understanding is that this
lady does not work for Greektown anymore.

As for Bob Dancer, I believe that in his discussion with Greektown my name
was mentioned and Greektown decided not to offer me the same olive branch
they extended to the other barred players. I have thanked Bob for his
efforts with Greektown on my behalf. I think it's great that Greektown is
trying to improve their offerings and I think hiring Bob Dancer is a great
step in that direction. My wife and I have offered about 30 suggestions to
Greektown over the years and they implemented quite a few of them. This is
another reason the barring was a bitter pill me.

In Bob's reply to Brian he says

" The current management's position is that they are embarrassed by that
particular incident --- which they agree was handled very poorly. All they
can do now is to move on. They cannot go back and
un-do it, even though they would like to. They are hoping that by offering
good games and promotions, eventually people will decide to come back."

Here's where I will disagree. I had a comp balance of about $4000. I had a
$40 coupon voucher they mailed me the week before I was barred. Greektown
could very easily tell me today " John, we are sorry for what happened.
That management team is no longer part of Greektown. We will be happy to
remove the trepass order against you and will issue you your comp balance of
$4000. We will also cash in your $40 coupon and have you and your wife as
guests in our suite for the first game of the Detroit Red Wings playoff
run."

I agree they can't undo the barring incident but they can correct some of
the damage done. Greektown is making a business decision that the $4500 it
would cost to do this is not money well spent. Here's where some of the old
Greektown thinking surfaces again.

I'll also agree that Greektown has a very competitive video poker product
for the area. When people ask me about the casinos and where to play, I
tell them Greektown has the best quarter vp and a very nice set up. I NEVER
mention to anyone that I was kicked out of Greektown. If people ask, I
will tell that but I don't make it a point to advertise it.

As for my Detroit area play, I can play dollar pick 'em at MGM. If I hadn't
been barred for Greektown would I still be playing there? Probably. The
year I was barred I lost a fortune playing nickel 50 play 8/5 bonus poker.

In summary, good luck to Greektown. Detroit can certainly use the tax
money. With the set up they have, they could be the best casino in the
Midwest and line up favorably in Las Vegas. They are like the Lions; lots
of talent, lots of potential but always doing something silly and not
winning the game. I hope they listen to Bob.

****************************************************************************
************

Note: If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an
employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received
this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the
message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you.

****************************************************************************
************

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I read with interest the the recent postings about Greektown and Bob

Dancer's work with them. I am one of the Greektown 9 and one of two
who has not been reinstated.

Dancer wrote: " The current management's position is that they are

embarrassed by that particular incident --- which they agree was
handled very poorly. All they can do now is to move on. They cannot go
back and

un-do it, even though they would like to."

John Z replied: "I agree they can't undo the barring incident but

they can correct some of the damage done. Greektown is making a
business decision that the $4500 it would cost to do this is not money
well spent. Here's where some of the old Greektown thinking surfaces
again."

Exactly. Bob says they "cannot go back and un-do it" when, in fact,
the current management team has chosen NOT to go back and un-do it. As
a result, the current management doesn't exactly differ much from the
original group of thieves that stole from John and the others.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Zaroff, John" <John.G.Zaroff@...> wrote: