vpFREE2 Forums

Got a Question--Wining at short pay

Interesting point. Similarly, when folks here reply to someone who asks
what many know is a contradictory question (e.g. 'how do you WIN at a severly
short pay game") some people feel the need to lecture about why it is wrong to
attempt to help someone (who based on their question clearly does not
understand - or refuses to accept - the math) why it is simply IMPOSSIBLE to do what
they asked.

In a message dated 6/8/2005 6:49:36 AM Pacific Standard Time,
larsonsm@yahoo.com writes:

Any time someone posts a question
involving less-than-positive games, some people feel the need to
lecture about this foolish behavior

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob Stupak recommends that everytime your ready to go to a non Vegas
do not go and take that money you were going to spend and save it
for a trip to Vegas.

I'm sure the Las Vegas Vistors Bureau would say the same thing,
although they have some bias.

Interesting point. Similarly, when folks here reply to someone

who asks

what many know is a contradictory question (e.g. 'how do you WIN

at a severly

short pay game") some people feel the need to lecture about why it

is wrong to

attempt to help someone (who based on their question clearly does

not

understand - or refuses to accept - the math) why it is simply

IMPOSSIBLE to do what

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, ezfromnwon@a... wrote:

they asked.

In a message dated 6/8/2005 6:49:36 AM Pacific Standard Time,
larsonsm@y... writes:

Any time someone posts a question
involving less-than-positive games, some people feel the need to
lecture about this foolish behavior

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hansjurgent" <hansjurgent16@h...>
wrote:

Bob Stupak recommends that everytime your ready to go to a non Vegas
do not go and take that money you were going to spend and save it
for a trip to Vegas.

Who is Bob Stupak?

Does that mean that every time you want to have sex, you should save
up and wait to have it with a the figment of your fantasies?

DWK

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hansjurgent" <hansjurgent16@h...>
wrote:

Bob Stupak recommends that everytime your ready to go to a non Vegas
do not go and take that money you were going to spend and save it
for a trip to Vegas.

Seriously, not counting the cost of playing the vp, but counting
transportation {flying}, rooming, food, and etc. (assuming some of
this can get comped) for husband and wife who play quarters (to help
estimate the comps); what would a trip from Detroit to LV cost on
average for 3 days?

DWK

Anyone who doesn't know who Bob Stupak is needs help.

http://www.bigempire.com/vegas/bobstupak.html

The Muff

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000" <deuceswild1000@y...>
wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hansjurgent" <hansjurgent16@h...>
wrote:
> Bob Stupak recommends that everytime your ready to go to a non

Vegas

> do not go and take that money you were going to spend and save it
> for a trip to Vegas.

Who is Bob Stupak?

Does that mean that every time you want to have sex, you should

save

···

up and wait to have it with a the figment of your fantasies?

DWK

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000" <deuceswild1000@y...>
wrote:

Who is Bob Stupak?

Okay, this question (asked sincerely, I'm sure) REALLY makes me feel
old today.

You'll all recognize me in LV this weekend in my t-shirt from Silver
City and drinking coffee from my Sands mug.

Drew

In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000" <deuceswild1000@y...>wrote

Who is Bob Stupak?

DWK

···

-------------------------------------------------

In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hansjurgent" <hansjurgent16@h...> wrote:
Bob Stupak recommends that everytime your ready to go to a non Vegas
do not go and take that money you were going to spend and save it
for a trip to Vegas.
------------------------------------------------------

Hi Drew.

No one seems to want to answer your question about "who is
Bob Stupak"? Perhaps they are too young to remember.

Bob Stupak was the original owner of "Vegas World" (now the
Statosphere). Back in the 80's & early 90's, he ran casino
promotions (for dummies) that utilized lots of free "one play/non-
negotiable chips, together with room charges and some other perks,
for a nominal sum. LOTS of people took advantage of his deals
(mostly unsophisticated gamblers/tourists). Usually, they lost all
their "free chips", and then the rest of their bankroll. I'm sure
that lots of them still enjoyed themselves, but the offer was not
geared to the knowledable player.

Bob Stupak was a world class gambler/poker player, as well
as a dare devil bike rider. He lost his casino in (I believe) a
hostile takeover, by the folks who turned his casino into the
Stratosphere. He also was very seriously injured, in an
accident (I think, while riding his cycle) and almost died.
In recent years, he has faded from sight in the casino world.

This is all from my memory, as I was a LV regular durimg those days.
Fortunately, I was smart enough, even then, to avoid his casino.

I hope this answers you question.

Regards,

Babe

He was on one of the poker tournament shows the other day, wsop? wpt?
It was probably a repeat.

···

On 6/8/05, jackessiebabe <jackessiebabe@yahoo.com> wrote:

In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000" <deuceswild1000@y...>wrote

Who is Bob Stupak?

DWK
-------------------------------------------------

Bob Stupak is a Las Vegas Legend. If you Google him you will find tons of references. Here's a good one: http://www.bigempire.com/vegas/bobstupak.html
  Skip

jackessiebabe wrote:

···

In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000" <deuceswild1000@y...>wrote

Who is Bob Stupak?
  DWK
-------------------------------------------------

In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hansjurgent" <hansjurgent16@h...> wrote: Bob Stupak recommends that everytime your ready to go to a non Vegas do not go and take that money you were going to spend and save it for a trip to Vegas. ------------------------------------------------------

Hi Drew.

No one seems to want to answer your question about "who is Bob Stupak"? Perhaps they are too young to remember.

Bob Stupak was the original owner of "Vegas World" (now the Statosphere). Back in the 80's & early 90's, he ran casino
promotions (for dummies) that utilized lots of free "one play/non-
negotiable chips, together with room charges and some other perks,
for a nominal sum. LOTS of people took advantage of his deals
(mostly unsophisticated gamblers/tourists). Usually, they lost all their "free chips", and then the rest of their bankroll. I'm sure
that lots of them still enjoyed themselves, but the offer was not
geared to the knowledable player.

Bob Stupak was a world class gambler/poker player, as well as a dare devil bike rider. He lost his casino in (I believe) a hostile takeover, by the folks who turned his casino into the Stratosphere. He also was very seriously injured, in an
accident (I think, while riding his cycle) and almost died. In recent years, he has faded from sight in the casino world.

This is all from my memory, as I was a LV regular durimg those days.
Fortunately, I was smart enough, even then, to avoid his casino.

I hope this answers you question.

Regards,

Babe

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

--
Thanks!
Skip
http://www.vpinsider.com

<<Bob Stupak was the original owner of "Vegas World" (now the
Stratosphere). Back in the 80's & early 90's, he ran casino
promotions (for dummies) that utilized lots of free "one play/non-
negotiable chips, together with room charges and some other perks,
for a nominal sum. LOTS of people took advantage of his deals
(mostly unsophisticated gamblers/tourists). Usually, they lost all
their "free chips", and then the rest of their bankroll. I'm sure
that lots of them still enjoyed themselves, but the offer was not
geared to the knowledable player.>>

However, we and many other knowledgeable players made tons of money doing these because we knew how to use the promotion to our advantage.

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards.
  NEW - Blackjack Strategy Cards +
              Updated Second Edition of
             "The Frugal Gambler."

We haven't had that many "celebrity sightings" in LV but we did see Bob
Stupak dining at the Plaza's Center Stage last October.

···

_____

Who is Bob Stupak?

In recent years, he has faded from sight in the casino world.

Babe

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

  _____

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

one of the best trip reports yet...

Anyone who doesn't know who Bob Stupak is needs help.

http://www.bigempire.com/vegas/bobstupak.html

The Muff

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000"

<deuceswild1000@y...>

wrote:
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hansjurgent"

<hansjurgent16@h...>

> wrote:
> > Bob Stupak recommends that everytime your ready to go to a non
Vegas
> > do not go and take that money you were going to spend and save

it

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mufflerr" <mufflerr@y...> wrote:

> > for a trip to Vegas.
>
>
> Who is Bob Stupak?
>
>
> Does that mean that every time you want to have sex, you should
save
> up and wait to have it with a the figment of your fantasies?
>
> DWK

I think he won some money on the World Poker tour recently. He
looks well.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, fieldcommand <fieldcommand@g...>
wrote:

He was on one of the poker tournament shows the other day, wsop?

wpt?

It was probably a repeat.

> In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000"

<deuceswild1000@y...>wrote

···

On 6/8/05, jackessiebabe <jackessiebabe@y...> wrote:
>
> Who is Bob Stupak?
>
> DWK
> -------------------------------------------------
>
>

For some of us, VP is a form of wonderful entertainment. Yes, we do play to
win, but, fortunately, we do not have to make a living at it. Many of us play VP
at the machines that are available on the LV strip. We acknowledge that the
EV of just about all of them is less than one. But, we look to play the best of
them, like 9/6 JOB, NSUD, etc.

One interesting way that my wife and I "fool" ourselves into thinking that we
are playing a "positive" game, or, alternatively, trying to determine what the
cost of our entertainment might be, my wife and I, when playing NSUD, for
instance, will keep track of the number of wild royals we have during a trip.
Then, at the end of the trip, we multiply the number of wild royals by 10 coins
($2.50 if we are playing quarters). That amount is what we "pay" for having
played NSUD instead of FPDW (which usually does not exist on the
strip...yes, we know that it does at the Tropicana and the Frontier), noting that
the EV of NSUD is 99.7283%, but would be 100.1114% if the WR paid 135
coins, instead of 125 coins.

We often do the same for JOB, multiplying the number of "4 of a kind" that we
get by 10 coins, noting that the EV of JOB is 99.5439%, but would be
100.0164% if the "4 of a kind" paid 135 coins, instead of 125 coins.

Oftentimes our comp'ed meals and room may total more that the "cost" of our
playing under the above rules. Most of the times they don't, but, invariably,
the "cost" of our entertainment, so computed, is surprisingly small.

.....bl

P.S. An interesting question would be, what strategy should we play? NSUD
paying 125 for the WR or 135 for the WR? I have not looked at it with Strategy
Master of Frugal, but it would be interesting to see what the strategy
differences would be.

Here's my suggestion: Comp yourself.
For example, let's look at NSUD +1% cash.
Using:
http://wizardofodds.com/videopoker/analyzer/CindyProg.html
for NSUD +1% cash, the 10%ror bankroll is 3684 bets.
So, set aside 3684 bets as your gambling account, and since you're
comping yourself, add 1% to it after each trip, 1% means 1 bet per 100
hands. Then, if you play perfectly, your chances of not starting a
losing streak of 3684 bets is 90%. The 1% comp yourself is the cost of
playing the game in addition to setting aside the initial 3684 bet
bankroll. Any cash the casino gives you can replace some of your 1%
cost, in addition any savings, for example if instead of eating at
Krusty Burger you get a free buffet pass, then the money you would
have spent at Krusty can be redirected to your gambling account. Any
amount over 3684 in your gambling account can be skimmed for other
purposes as long as you are comfortable with a 10% risk of losing the
3684, alternately the account can be allowed to grow which will reduce
your risk of losing it all.

The bottom line is that EV is just the average cost. Your risk
involves more than the average cost.

For some of us, VP is a form of wonderful entertainment. Yes, we do

play to

win, but, fortunately, we do not have to make a living at it. Many

of us play VP

at the machines that are available on the LV strip. We acknowledge

that the

EV of just about all of them is less than one. But, we look to play

the best of

them, like 9/6 JOB, NSUD, etc.

One interesting way that my wife and I "fool" ourselves into

thinking that we

are playing a "positive" game, or, alternatively, trying to

determine what the

cost of our entertainment might be, my wife and I, when playing

NSUD, for

instance, will keep track of the number of wild royals we have

during a trip.

Then, at the end of the trip, we multiply the number of wild royals

by 10 coins

($2.50 if we are playing quarters). That amount is what we "pay"

for having

played NSUD instead of FPDW (which usually does not exist on the
strip...yes, we know that it does at the Tropicana and the

Frontier), noting that

the EV of NSUD is 99.7283%, but would be 100.1114% if the WR paid 135
coins, instead of 125 coins.

We often do the same for JOB, multiplying the number of "4 of a

kind" that we

get by 10 coins, noting that the EV of JOB is 99.5439%, but would be
100.0164% if the "4 of a kind" paid 135 coins, instead of 125 coins.

Oftentimes our comp'ed meals and room may total more that the "cost"

of our

playing under the above rules. Most of the times they don't, but,

invariably,

the "cost" of our entertainment, so computed, is surprisingly small.

.....bl

P.S. An interesting question would be, what strategy should we

play? NSUD

paying 125 for the WR or 135 for the WR? I have not looked at it

with Strategy

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bornloser1537" <bornloser1537@y...> wrote:

Master of Frugal, but it would be interesting to see what the strategy
differences would be.

YES! I can see the idea of that. I think that we just might try that our next time out. My
wife and I go back to LV in August.

Thanks!

.....bl

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@y...>
wrote:

···

Here's my suggestion: Comp yourself.
For example, let's look at NSUD +1% cash.
Using:
http://wizardofodds.com/videopoker/analyzer/CindyProg.html
for NSUD +1% cash, the 10%ror bankroll is 3684 bets.
So, set aside 3684 bets as your gambling account, and since you're
comping yourself, add 1% to it after each trip, 1% means 1 bet per 100
hands. Then, if you play perfectly, your chances of not starting a
losing streak of 3684 bets is 90%. The 1% comp yourself is the cost of
playing the game in addition to setting aside the initial 3684 bet
bankroll. Any cash the casino gives you can replace some of your 1%
cost, in addition any savings, for example if instead of eating at
Krusty Burger you get a free buffet pass, then the money you would
have spent at Krusty can be redirected to your gambling account. Any
amount over 3684 in your gambling account can be skimmed for other
purposes as long as you are comfortable with a 10% risk of losing the
3684, alternately the account can be allowed to grow which will reduce
your risk of losing it all.

The bottom line is that EV is just the average cost. Your risk
involves more than the average cost.