vpFREE2 Forums

Good VP games are fading fast

#1

As the powers to be make it more and more difficult to find good VP pay tables, they are not only losing the VP players they are losing the the people that travel with them. Like my wife and our neighbors. They love to play video keno, Sun and the Moon, Tiki Torch and a host of other slot machines that are very profitable for the casinos. We are starting to find that our local Indian Casinos are becoming more and more attractive and competitive with VP paytables and we don't have that long drive to Las Vegas. I say so what if the VP player wins more often than the other slot players. The people that travel with them more than make up for what I might win on occasion. I keep pushing our group to go to LV but I may soon agree to stay in our own backyard.
  Robert

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#2

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Robert Pickett <robert.pickett70@...>
wrote:

As the powers to be make it more and more difficult to find good VP

pay tables

I keep hearing this statement, but as far as my plays go there hasn't
been that many changes in the last year.

Sure, they have cuts points in some cases, but just recently stations
added cashback and boyds provided tier benefits. Tuscany has gone to
10x points on occasion and South Point has put back in SDB. Coast
casinos took out all positive games and now they are back.

The four years I've been living in Las Vegas I've sensed the
reductions slowing down. I still find FPDW in lot's of venues up to
the dollar level. They come and go. Sure it's nothing like it was
several years ago, but I have come to feel things have reached an
equilibrium that now accounts for the better players (that's us).
From this point on I think the ebbs and flows of the games will
follow economic principles (which is what they've been doing all
along). Unless, we see a new flood of high quality players I don't
forsee significant changes in the future. And, there's simply not
enough value to attract them.

IMO, expect to see cuts here and there, especially when the casinos
are doing well, but also expect to see good plays pop up also,
especially when the casinos are struggling.

Of course, if I'm wrong, we can all go to Montana :wink:

Dick

#3

The mistake that Vegas casinos are making is to think that Las Vegas
is such an attractive destination in itself that people will put up
with lousy gambling and price gouging just to BE there. Well, in the
first place, as you note, it's a certain amount of hassle to get
there: a long drive from just about anywhere, or the alternative of
enduring airline travel into and out of one of the worst-congested
airports in the country. In the second place, they no longer have
exclusivity as a gambling destination--many of the people they
consider their "market" have closer-to-home options.

In light of the above, you would think that Vegas casinos would try
to retain a competitive edge in terms of offering the best gambling
value available, but they've done just the opposite--because they
have been temporarily able to sustain a hype-based marketing
campaign that focused on gouging the new crop of equity-refugee baby
boomers flush with cash. This strategy has worked in the short term,
but it cannot be sustained. Once the casino's new class of victims
has spent a couple of trips paying $300/night for rooms, $200/ticket
for shows, $100/meal for food, and on top of that, being nickel-and-
dimed to death at every turn, from the cab ride to the minibar to
the "resort fee" or "energy fee"; once the gambler finds that the
price of his enjoyment is sky-high table minimums at games that have
a higher house percentage than at any time in human history; once
they've been rode hard and put up wet by the casinos, and they take
a sober look at what their fabulous Vegas vacation has COST
them....they won't come back. Ever.

#4

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tralfamidorgooglycrackers"
<tralfamidorgooglycrackers@...> wrote:

The mistake that Vegas casinos are making is to think that Las

Vegas

is such an attractive destination in itself that people will put up
with lousy gambling and price gouging just to BE there. Well, in

the

first place, as you note, it's a certain amount of hassle to get
there: a long drive from just about anywhere, or the alternative of
enduring airline travel into and out of one of the worst-congested
airports in the country. In the second place, they no longer have
exclusivity as a gambling destination--many of the people they
consider their "market" have closer-to-home options.

In light of the above, you would think that Vegas casinos would try
to retain a competitive edge in terms of offering the best gambling
value available, but they've done just the opposite--because they
have been temporarily able to sustain a hype-based marketing
campaign that focused on gouging the new crop of equity-refugee

baby

boomers flush with cash. This strategy has worked in the short

term,

but it cannot be sustained. Once the casino's new class of victims
has spent a couple of trips paying $300/night for rooms,

$200/ticket

for shows, $100/meal for food, and on top of that, being nickel-and-
dimed to death at every turn, from the cab ride to the minibar to
the "resort fee" or "energy fee"; once the gambler finds that the
price of his enjoyment is sky-high table minimums at games that

have

a higher house percentage than at any time in human history; once
they've been rode hard and put up wet by the casinos, and they take
a sober look at what their fabulous Vegas vacation has COST
them....they won't come back. Ever.

This has been the recent history and I agree it is not sustainable.
This is one of the reasons I see the current recession digging deep
into the casinos revenues. What will follow is more competitive
offerings. I don't think this will lead to hordes of new positive VP
machines, but I think the incentives will increase making current
machines more lucrative. The people WILL come back if the offers are
reasonable.

Dick

#5

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Robert Pickett <robert.pickett70@>
wrote:
>
> As the powers to be make it more and more difficult to find good

VP

pay tables

I keep hearing this statement, but as far as my plays go there

hasn't

been that many changes in the last year.

Sure, they have cuts points in some cases, but just recently

stations

added cashback and boyds provided tier benefits. Tuscany has gone

to

10x points on occasion and South Point has put back in SDB. Coast
casinos took out all positive games and now they are back.

The four years I've been living in Las Vegas I've sensed the
reductions slowing down. I still find FPDW in lot's of venues up to
the dollar level. They come and go. Sure it's nothing like it was
several years ago, but I have come to feel things have reached an
equilibrium that now accounts for the better players (that's us).
From this point on I think the ebbs and flows of the games will
follow economic principles (which is what they've been doing all
along). Unless, we see a new flood of high quality players I don't
forsee significant changes in the future. And, there's simply not
enough value to attract them.

IMO, expect to see cuts here and there, especially when the casinos
are doing well, but also expect to see good plays pop up also,
especially when the casinos are struggling.

Of course, if I'm wrong, we can all go to Montana :wink:

Dick

You find $ FPDW today? In many venues? Not one is listed in the
database.

Bill

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mroejacks" <rgmustain@...> wrote:

#6

For self preservation (players and machines), the "better" plays are never listed in the
database.

..... bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "weharter" <weharter@...> wrote:

You find $ FPDW today? In many venues? Not one is listed in the
database.

Bill

#7

Thanks, Dick, for your adding your sensible comments to this
discussion. I share your opinion. If a VP player is willing to do
both the necessary mental and legwork, good opportunties still remain
in Las Vegas.

~Babe~

···

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mroejacks" <rgmustain@...> wrote:

but as far as my plays go there hasn't been that many changes

in the last year.

Sure, they have cuts points in some cases, but just recently stations
added cashback and boyds provided tier benefits. Tuscany has gone to
10x points on occasion and South Point has put back in SDB. Coast
casinos took out all positive games and now they are back.............

#8

Although BL answered this question let me expand on it from my
perspective. If I were to post the location of extremely good plays,
they would be doomed. How would this help anyone? It would do no one
any good and they would end up being removed from the database in a
short time.

Personally, I assume the very BEST plays are not in the database and I
hope they never appear. Competitive plays are another story. If I ran
into quarter FPDW at a casino that previously did not have the game,
then I would have no problem posting that information.

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "weharter" <weharter@...> wrote:

You find $ FPDW today? In many venues? Not one is listed in the
database.

#9

I agree. And, as I have said time and time again, for me, LV/VP is strictly entertainment. Part
of the "fun" is prowling about during a trip, trying to find a "nugget" somewhere in this vast
wasteland. Once in a while, one (sometimes more than one) is uncovered and makes a trip
so much the sweeter.

I guess this "thrill-search" is in my genes, and comes from the millions of years of evolution
with humans learning, by need, to become "hunter/gatherers". <smile>

..... bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mroejacks" <rgmustain@...> wrote:

Personally, I assume the very BEST plays are not in the database and I
hope they never appear.

Dick

#10

For self preservation (players and machines), the "better" plays
are never listed in the database.

From vpFREE Rules and Policies:

"MEMBER PARTICIPATION: Every vpFREE member, as a requirement for
continuing membership, is expected to vote in all applicable vpFREE
polls and elections, and to report DataBase inventory changes in
casinos they visit (unless it is an obvious casino mistake or they are
protecting a secret play for themselves)."

"SUNSHINE POLICY: ALL of the better video poker games that are known to
the Administrator will be shared with the vpFREE membership."

#11

I can't speak for locals since I live in the LA area.

But there are, and always have been, just two things that get me to Vegas:

1) What are my game choices and payback?

2) How am I treated?

Your competition for my play are the numerous California Indian casinos. Good VP is abundant. Comps and cash back aren't so hot.

If the Harrahs trend of downgrading machines and providing a mediocre experience continues, then most of us out-of-towners will simply play close to home.

But as long as you have a few Venetians and Wynns out there with full-pays and great accommodations and food we'll be back.

Simple as that.

#12

It's obvious that this goal isn't shared among ALL VP players on
this board. The rather ludicrous assertions, from obviously
otherwise intelligent people, that Vegas VP is NOT going down the
toilet, make me think that those persons have a little private stash
of good plays--and they're not ABOUT to tell the rest of us about
them.

It is manifest that there are still SOME good plays in Vegas, as
evidenced by those players' rather preachy statements that all that
us lazy bums have to do is GET OUT THERE AND SEARCH, search, search
until we find those good plays. In the meantime, they say, stop
bitching about the 0.000000000000000001 percent comp rates.

The trouble is, most of us have LIVES--and most of us live somewhere
besides Las Vegas. We don't have TIME, on a casual weekend trip, to
sift through a mountain of dreck just to find a few decent VP
machines. That's what the VPFree database is supposed to be FOR.
Now, if there's a SECOND, subsidiary, PRIVATE "database" that lists
all those wonderful plays that the locals are asserting still exist,
well, that's a different story.

I don't think it's impossible to make some kind of decent living as
a VP-trolling Vegas local. I do think, however, it's ludicrous to
claim that it hasn't gotten MUCH harder.

#13

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tralfamidorgooglycrackers"
<tralfamidorgooglycrackers@...> wrote:

The trouble is, most of us have LIVES--and most of us live somewhere
besides Las Vegas. We don't have TIME, on a casual weekend trip, to
sift through a mountain of dreck just to find a few decent VP
machines. That's what the VPFree database is supposed to be FOR.

I always thought the purpose of the VPFree database was just to list
the obvious average plays for those too lazy to do their own scouting?
Occasionally, for whatever motives, someone would post a good play,
and then the casino would pull that play, having been duly informed.
In any case, as has been frequently pointed out, it's not really about
the play anyway, but more about the promotions, many of which aren't
open to the general public, you have to be a certain age, or a certain
ethnicity, or a certain sex, or a member of some group the casino
wants to market to, or you have to have connections at the casino or
make some deal where you get to play in exchange for bringing in a
certain number of busloads of fresh meat, etc.