With the recent spate of negative postings about traditionally popular casinos (Sam's Town
and Palms), I wonder if any casino really deserves our admiration and backing in the
current deteriorating environment. Is there one out there that consistently deals fairly with
its customers, maintains a high-quality VP inventory, and offers a good, balanced
marketing program?
Good Casinos
danbvbv wrote:
With the recent spate of negative postings about traditionally popular casinos (Sam's Town and Palms), I wonder if any casino really deserves our admiration and backing in the current deteriorating environment. Is there one out there that consistently deals fairly with its customers, maintains a high-quality VP inventory, and offers a good, balanced marketing program?
Dan;
These two places are two of the best places in town and that hasn't changed. You will always hear complaints. It's familiar territory. About three year ago, the Rampart had almost 50 fast slant-top machines with fifty-cent FPDW. And they had them for quite a while. They also had .25% cashback and double points once or twice a week. And there were people (and I believe one of them was heard from here recently) on the Internet, complaining loudly that they were too tight with comps!
There have always been posts in this format:
XXX casino really ticked me off. Nobody go there!
And there always will be.
Conditions change and always will. Places get tighter and places get looser. We just have to decide which is best for us at the particular time.
One thing I do want to correct. The Palms did NOT open up with great video poker. They opened with fair video poker. Mr. Maloof wanted to be competitive with the locals' places and believed their inventory of full pay VP was deficient. He commisioned a survey of the locals' casinos to find out. The survey supported his view and the VP was loosened up. Not too long after that, Coast Casinos (his main competitor) slashed video poker drastically, but the Palms held the line.
Thanks,
Skip
With the recent spate of negative postings about traditionally
popular casinos (Sam's Town
and Palms), I wonder if any casino really deserves our admiration
and backing in the
current deteriorating environment. Is there one out there that
consistently deals fairly with
its customers, maintains a high-quality VP inventory, and offers a
good, balanced
marketing program?
For me as a Visitor, the LVH has been great. While it doesn't have a
large 100%+ inventory (some AA in .25 and 15/8 LD in .25/$1), it is
one of few places left that has Pick'Em (.25/$1). It also has a good
# of 9/6 JOB.
I have not been dealt unfairly by the hotel staff, managment, or the
hosts. I will say that my current host has not gone out of her way
for anything; but I suspect that's true since I am a .25 (and
occasional $1) VP player and she is an executive casino host. I am
going back in less than 3 weeks and plan on talking to another host.
After saying that, I don't expect much. I have gotten decent offers
from marketing (including 3 nights free)... and they have started
(this year) to implement a BounceBack Cash program.
Hope that helps...
Jeff
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "danbvbv" <dbaise@j...> wrote:
danbvbv wrote:
>With the recent spate of negative postings about traditionally
popular casinos (Sam's Town
>and Palms), I wonder if any casino really deserves our admiration
and backing in the
>current deteriorating environment. Is there one out there that
consistently deals fairly with
>its customers, maintains a high-quality VP inventory, and offers
a good, balanced
>marketing program?
>
>
Dan;
These two places are two of the best places in town and that
hasn't
changed.
This is somewhat true; however, it's only true on a RELATIVE basis
since each casino has drastically downgraded its inventory, player
benefits, etc. AND their attitudes toward non-losing players has
gotten increasingly hostile. For example, the Palms now has ten FPDW
remaining out of what were over 40 such machines at one point. They
have excluded FPDW players from all promotions. Sam's Town has less
than half a dozen FPDW remaining (I don't check every week so I
don't know how many have been removed day-to-day), and their
dealings with high-limit VP players have been shabby at best.
What's pathetic is that even the above notwithstanding, these ARE
among the best places in town to play, at least until they replace
the last few FPDW with 7/5 Bonus Poker.
You will always hear complaints. It's familiar territory. About
three year ago, the Rampart had almost 50 fast slant-top machines
with fifty-cent FPDW. And they had them for quite a while. They also
had .25% cashback and double points once or twice a week. And there
were people (and I believe one of them was heard from here recently)
on the Internet, complaining loudly that they were too tight with
comps!
They were INDEED extremely tight with comps; this was when there was
still such a thing as a "discretionary" comp, which is a comp issued
by a host based on your play and not counted against your points. In
an environment where $1500-$3000 at other competing casinos
(Suncoast, Santa Fe, Fiesta R) would just about always get you a
buffet comp, there were numerous reports (and one personal
experience of my own) where a buffet comp was REFUSED after OVER TEN
THOUSAND in coin-in was posted on that day. So yes indeedy, they
WERE horribly tight with comps, by any measure. The fact that they
also had good FPDW and .25 cashback doesn't enter into it; at the
time, their competitors had similar inventories and incentives.
There have always been posts in this format:
XXX casino really ticked me off. Nobody go there!
And there always will be.
Not due to someone just randomly pissed off at a casino because they
didn't like the color of the carpet, but because they had a genuine
negative experience that they felt strongly enough about to post to
this message board. You can take such comments with as large a grain
of salt as you wish. I, for one, have found that when there are two
or more corroborating posts in a relativelky short period of time
about a given casino, that indicates that all is not well, and it
behooves me to heed the implied (or baldly stated) warnings.
Conditions change and always will. Places get tighter
MUCH tighter recently
and places get looser.
God, I hope this happens soon!
But it won't.
We just have to decide which is best for us at the particular time.
One thing I do want to correct. The Palms did NOT open up with
great video poker. They opened with fair video poker. Mr. Maloof
wanted to be competitive with the locals' places and believed their
inventory of full pay VP was deficient. He commisioned a survey of
the locals' casinos to find out. The survey supported his view and
the VP was loosened up.
This is a subjective view. It's obvious that the VP now is much
worse than it was during the first year of operation. I counted
seventeen reports of downgrades in the archives for 2003-2005, and
NO reports of upgrades.
Not too long after that, Coast Casinos (his main competitor)
slashed video poker drastically, but the Palms held the line.
Not really. They just allowed SOME decent VP to live. They are using
a policy of gradual attrition, rather than the Coast slash-and-burn
approach; the result will be the same: no decent VP. In the meantime
it was shrewd marketing to withhold the COMPLETE destruction of VP
until the fallout from Coast's move could be measured (Gold Coast
being across the street, after all). If the lemmings abandoned GC in
droves, then the Palms could advertise all its wonderful 100%
payback video poker machines. If not (as was the actual case), they
could nod approvingly and resume the decimation of their own
inventory.
It's just been announced that Las vegas won more money in 2004 than
any year in history. This with tighter table games, higher table
minimums, and tighter VP, coupled with dratically increased prices
on everything from rooms to shows to hot dogs. Are they going to
offer us any decent deals any more? The bottom line says, they don't
NEED to. And they won't. The competitive casino market is a sham, as
the casinos act in concert (especially since three large
corporations own just about the whole Strip), looking out for their
collective best interest (for instance, why isn't anyone
offering "traditional" single-deck blackjack--and making a killing?)
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Skip Hughes <skiphughes@e...> wrote:
rockofjello333 wrote:
three year ago, the Rampart had almost 50 fast slant-top machines
with fifty-cent FPDW. And they had them for quite a while. They also had .25% cashback and double points once or twice a week. And there were people (and I believe one of them was heard from here recently) on the Internet, complaining loudly that they were too tight with comps!
They were INDEED extremely tight with comps; The fact that they also had good FPDW and .25 cashback doesn't enter into it; at the time, their competitors had similar inventories and incentives.
Well, no, they really didn't. Fiesta-H did have a lot of ten-coin quarter fpdw with no cashback. Coast and Stations had quarter fpdw with .25/.5%. and 0.0% cb respectively. Rampart's fifty cent slants plus .25/.5% cb was tops among generally known plays, not counting Key Largo. And I wasn't saying comps weren't extremly tight. They were. Just saying it didn't matter.
I snipped a whole lot of ROJ's post but I don't want to give the impression I disagree that the overall trend has been downhill for a long time. I'm just saying (agreeing actually) that a lot of this is relative. I would love to have those fifty-cent DW slant-tops back at the Rampart with .25%/.5% CB and I don't care if they ever gave me a food comp (I always got food there BTW, even if I had to hassle with them for while.)
One thing I do want to correct. The Palms did NOT open up with great video poker. They opened with fair video poker. Mr. Maloof wanted to be competitive with the locals' places and believed their inventory of full pay VP was deficient. He commisioned a survey of the locals' casinos to find out. The survey supported his view and the VP was loosened up.
This is a subjective view.
Actually it's a statement of fact. I know who did the survey and when it was done - early, Jan 02, (about a month and a half after the opening). Those that remember the opening remember the dw progressive, some quarter 10/7, a couple of other goodies and a sea of short pay. Also very narrow aisles and some other complaints. After the survey:
(from the vphomepage News page):
1/14/02: The Palms has added a few good plays: a bank of quarter KBJW (not rf4700) two banks in from the Keno area. It's right next to a nickel KBJW (short-pay) Progressive. There's a bank of quarter 15/8 LDs between the slot club and food CT.
1/17/02 (John Kelly) "The upshot of the most recent info is that the Palms has addressed the only two strikes against them: they have expanded and improved their FPVP inventory"
1/24/02 : loose deuces at the PALMS <snip> JK: "Yet another upgrade to Palms' improving inventory.
1/26/02: 26 new $.25 10/6 DDB (100%) machines - 12 by the west entrance, 6 by the Palapa Lounge, and 8 by the front desk. Also near the Palapa Lounge: 6 $.25 multigames with 50,000 coin sequential royals, offering 9/6 bonus deluxe, 9/6 jacks, and 9/7 Triple Double Bonus
A lot of $1/$2 10/7 and $1 10/6 DDB were also added during this time.*
*Yes some of this stuff has come and gone but much remains.*
···
*
It's obvious that the VP now is much worse than it was during the first year of operation.
It's certainly not nearly as good as at it's peak, but it's better than when it opened. And it's still better than most of it's competitors. Is it on a downward trend? Yep. What else is new?
Not too long after that, Coast Casinos (his main competitor) slashed video poker drastically, but the Palms held the line.
Not really. They just allowed SOME decent VP to live. They are using a policy of gradual attrition, rather than the Coast slash-and-burn approach;
Well I have to agree with the facts if not quite the wording.
the result will be the same: no decent VP.
Maybe, but that's pure speculation.
In the meantime it was shrewd marketing to withhold the COMPLETE destruction of VP until the fallout from Coast's move could be measured (Gold Coast being across the street, after all).
Agree with that.
If the lemmings abandoned GC in droves, then the Palms could advertise all its wonderful 100% payback video poker machines. If not (as was the actual case), they could nod approvingly and resume the decimation of their own inventory.
Well, the Palms could have opened tight and stayed tight and still done well. George Maloof is one of the good guys in this town who doesn't mind giving the skilled player a chance. I believe he will always have some decent plays, but that's pure speculation also.
It's just been announced that Las vegas won more money in 2004 than any year in history. This with tighter table games, higher table minimums, and tighter VP, coupled with dratically increased prices on everything from rooms to shows to hot dogs. Are they going to offer us any decent deals any more? The bottom line says, they don't NEED to. And they won't. The competitive casino market is a sham, as the casinos act in concert (especially since three large corporations own just about the whole Strip), looking out for their collective best interest (for instance, why isn't anyone offering "traditional" single-deck blackjack--and making a killing?)
The biggest reason in the increased win was one you left out. Las Vegas had a huge increase in visitors, an all time high. Forget what it was, but it was something like 38 million. Yes it's a seller's market. The percentage of these people who look for (and play modestly accurately), full pay video poker is probably about .01%.
I suspect that the idiot stuff like 6:5 BJ does have a noticeable impact, but the only thing LV has to do to win more is get more butts in the chairs. And that's what they did.
BTW, I also agree that the casinos act in collusion. For instance there is simply no other way to explain why not a single one of them has made even a token effort to offer a non-smoking environment in a significant part of their casinos.
P.S.
Kevin, before you left the group last time, you and I had an actual civil discourse and found ourselves agreeing on something. Can't remember what it was, but it was an agreement.
Now, I am agreeing with you here on many, or even most points again. People are going to start looking for signs of the impending apocalypse.<g>
Welcome back, BTW.
Skip
BTW, I also agree that the casinos act in collusion. For instance
there
is simply no other way to explain why not a single one of them has
made
even a token effort to offer a non-smoking environment in a
significant
part of their casinos.
Skip
I particularly like the effort the Gold Coast has made at a non-
smoking area, against the far back wall, I believe there are 10
machines are labelled non-smoking all 10 machines are within 5 feet
of chain smoking players. I beleive the casinos make money in spite
poor management not because they are expertly run. I can't believe
the casinos wouldn't make more money with proper smoke free areas.
The fact is smoking is highly correlated with less educated lower
income individuals...if they want to cater to people with larger
wallets they need non-smoking areas...
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Skip Hughes <skiphughes@e...> wrote:
I think I stated this before, but I don't remember anywhere where is
was the casinos absolute mandate where players were guaranteed $40
EV/hr. I think it's hilarious that many of you want that and expect
good mail offers and comps to boot (BTW, I never had trouble getting
anything at Rampart). Put yourself in the operators' shoes for a
minute-your business is at best marginally profitable and more likely
unprofitable, and you want me to give the store away in keeping your
business?
Skip notes, correctly, that NV casinos won a record $10.6B last year.
Give the MBAs that run the joints some credit. Their strategy is a
pretty simple one-human beings are action junkies and as long as we
keep supplying the action, and give them less and less, they'll bring
their sorry-ass addicted themselves to lose even more dough. As long
as they can keep tightening things and players will put up with it,
expect that trend to continue. One Caesars property, since their
purchase by Harrahs, now require 2x the amount of play to maintain
current mail level. Another one, which is one of the better known
names in the chain, now sends me offers which two years ago I think
would be embarrassed to send. At so many places these days, they're
doing you the biggest favor taking your money. As such, I feel less
and less guilty about taking theirs.
Note to casino-running MBAs: if the class action guys can win their
case against the fast food restaurant industry, who do you think might
be next? Just some food for thought.
What has caused the demise of good VP are a number of factors. The
primary one is that there is too much information out there, and
boards like this one don't help. It's not a personal thing, but these
boards reflect the simple fact that more and more people know how to
play. When this happens, what will happen naturally will be the
casinos' hold on particular game becoming less and less, which will
cause them to downgrade machines. Second, the math is much better, and
large holes by mathematicians and programmers have disappeared. For
example, one well known machine manufacturer almost never got a
program's payout correct during the '90s. Third, casinos are doing the
arithmetic better, but that leads me to my biggest complaint, which is...
Casinos are built to take bets. You have a number of slots directors
who only care about their personal bottom line, and can't/won't/don't
do the math to ensure profitability. These guys have targets and
quotas which must be reached-guys like Hallmark (Palms) frequently
take the easy way out by offering a tight, crappy product on the
floor. Offering 5-line Deuces for $1, $2 and $5 denoms, but not on the
50-play or 100-play for dollars is simply irrational. In fairness to
him, a $1 50-play NSUD would be the prime choice of machine to play
during a promo, because the machines also give .125% free play. But he
could counter that in a number of different ways (exclude from FP,
half tickets for drawings, etc.).
Putting stickers on the 10/7, frankly, was so clueless it's not even
worth commenting on. The less potential $100K and up jackpots they
have to pay off, the better it is for job security. Consider the
Harrah's Tahoe "Wacky Wednesday" promotion which had a $5 or $10 Jacks
player with a 4% edge. After the promotion was abruptly ended, a
couple of suits there "decided" to quit or take retirement. I'm not
sure if it was related, but my guess is yes, considering the decision
to offer $2 FPDW*. So, you have this atmosphere where the casino has a
bankroll literally in the billions of dollars, but are chary of taking
large action unless they have a decided edge. They'd rather have 3-5%
of a little than 1% of a lot (and can handle the flux which comes with
a smaller edge without problem), because the 3-5% promotes job security.
Finally, consolidation of the business=less competition=less desire to
put a consumer oriented product on the floor.
But cheer up, there's good news...Atlantis and Peppermill in Reno each
offer a great product, full pay all over the place, and all they ever
talk about is their next expansion.
My final example comes from the Midwest, still another Harrahs
purchase. This one was the Horseshoe, where Jack Binion had perhaps
the best slot program around. Tons and tons of cash offers. Jack was
famous for the $500 bounceback check, which if you could work it
right, receive 3x a week. Only problem was, for the most part, Jack's
machines paid the worst in the industry (the price you pay for the
easiest comps and the biggest cash offers). Harrahs comes in and
totally guts the cash out of the program, slices it by probably 80%.
Then when business drops, has the nerve to run a focus group to figure
out why (note to Satre and Loveman-it's because you busted them,
guys-ummmm DUH!). The high bounceback checks were the cog in the
Horseshoe slot program machine. This was one of the rare times where
the MBAs got it wrong, likely because they failed to recognize that
casinos like the 'Shoes were really locals joints, and not destination
resorts.
IMHO, this VP thing is pretty much almost over. Frankly, it should
never have started, but it was a pretty good run while it was on.
*a case history in itself. Offer a $75/hr EV game and people will be
fighting each other to try to burn it down.
Mohegan Sun has a non smoking area fro slots/VP called the hall of the
lost tribes in the casino of the earth. Also they have another smoke
free table game / slot area in the Casino of the Sky. Both then to be
filled with poeple who don't want to deal with the smoke.
-Dave
···
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:32:50 -0000, jaydavidson118 <jaydavidson118@yahoo.com> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Skip Hughes <skiphughes@e...> wrote:
>
> BTW, I also agree that the casinos act in collusion. For instance
there
> is simply no other way to explain why not a single one of them has
made
> even a token effort to offer a non-smoking environment in a
significant
> part of their casinos.
>> Skip
I particularly like the effort the Gold Coast has made at a non-
smoking area, against the far back wall, I believe there are 10
machines are labelled non-smoking all 10 machines are within 5 feet
of chain smoking players. I beleive the casinos make money in spite
poor management not because they are expertly run. I can't believe
the casinos wouldn't make more money with proper smoke free areas.
The fact is smoking is highly correlated with less educated lower
income individuals...if they want to cater to people with larger
wallets they need non-smoking areas...vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "paladin415x" <paladin415x@y...>
wrote:
I think I stated this before, but I don't remember anywhere where
is
was the casinos absolute mandate where players were guaranteed $40
EV/hr. I think it's hilarious that many of you want that and expect
good mail offers and comps to boot (BTW, I never had trouble
getting
anything at Rampart). Put yourself in the operators' shoes for a
minute-your business is at best marginally profitable and more
likely
unprofitable, and you want me to give the store away in keeping
your
business?
Obviously, you are using hyperbole to make your point. The main goal
of the vast majority of VP players, on this board and elsewhere, is
not to make $40/hour, but to NOT LOSE. Don't forget that a lot of
these casinos are running screaming, not from the deadly .25 FPDW
where the skilled player can rape the casino to the tune of $7/hour,
but also from the horrible 10/7 DB and the awful 9/6 JOB. The best--
the ABSOLUTE best--a player can do, with a few dwindling exceptions,
is to play a lousy VP game and hope comps and cashback bring him
back to even. Don't forget, also, that a $40 comp that has to be
spent somewhere in the Desert Dumpster casino isn't the same as two
$20 bills in your hand.
The reason we "expect" good VP is that we saw casinos like Fiesta,
Reserve, Santa Fe, Rampart, ACE/W, etc. etc. thrive and grow while
offering great VP and excellent slot club bennies. Why? There was a
large and fertile crop of dum-dums who played the games at 96%
return, enthusiastically if not well. We skilled VP players were,
and are now, a non-factor in casino profits, because our numbers are
so small.
The motivating factor behind the demise of good VP is GREED.
Whatever they were making during the "glory years", it evidently
wasn't enough to satisfy shareholders who wanted ever higher SHORT-
TERM profits, management who frequently got hired to "increase the
bottom line NOW", and mid-level talking heads who don't realize that
when you offer a product for sale, you can try to increase gross
sales in two ways: raise the price of the product, or lower it. They
only know how to move in the former direction, i.e., tighten the
games.
Um, ok....but I don't smoke, so what's MY excuse?
carlos
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jaydavidson118" <jaydavidson118@y...>
wrote:
[etc]...The fact is smoking is highly correlated with less educated
lower income individuals...[etc]
My replies follow....
The main goal
of the vast majority of VP players, on this board and elsewhere, is
not to make $40/hour, but to NOT LOSE.
Perhaps I'm one of the few people her who likes playing video poker
for the GAME. I am quite content to have a long-term negative
expectation (eg. 9/6 JOB without cashback) as long as:
1. The bet isn't too high (EVERY casino should be offering 9/6 JOB
for a $5 bet, in my opinion).
2. The comps are reasonable (I don't want to lose $200+ and not even
get a $20 buffet!).
3. The service in the casino is good (the casino is clean/smoke-free,
the staff is friendly, etc.).
4. The edge isn't TOO high (I don't EXPECT 100%+ games, but the
casino should offer AT LEAST 9/6 JOB or equivalent, since most offer
8D blackjack for $5 with a .43% house edge).
The best--
the ABSOLUTE best--a player can do, with a few dwindling
exceptions,
is to play a lousy VP game and hope comps and cashback bring him
back to even.
I don't expect the casino to be "losing money" on comps, as long as I
feel that the comps are REASONABLE.
There was a
large and fertile crop of dum-dums who played the games at 96%
return, enthusiastically if not well. We skilled VP players were,
and are now, a non-factor in casino profits, because our numbers
are so small.
Casinos now keep track of basic strategy blackjack players and will
give less generous comps to them even though they still make money
off of them!
The motivating factor behind the demise of good VP is GREED.
It used to be that casinos would use "loss leaders" to lead to long-
run profits:
1. The 99 cent breakfast would save players $5 on food, and then they
would lose $100 at the table. Now casinos want to charge $12+ for
breakfast to make a "real" profit from non-gamblers.
2. The "beatable" blackjack games would be hoarded by vastly
unskilled players who would more than make up for casino losses
caused by card counters. Now table games players can easily be
replaced by slot players.
3. Low-house edge video poker games would be hoarded by unskilled
players who would lose more than roulette players. Now casinos feel
that a .46% house edge for a SKILLED person betting $5 a hand and
playing 120+ hands of Jacks or Better video poker is "too generous"
when they can make 5% from an unskilled Double-Double Bonus player
betting $1.25 a hand and playing 125+ hands an hour (thinking he's
an "expert").
4. Video poker games would bring in friends, etc. who play the slots.
Now, even high house edge video poker (5% for 6/5JOB) looks bad when
casinos can replace them with slot machines that they KNOW will have
a house edge of 10%.
Replies appreciated.
With the recent spate of negative postings about traditionally
popular casinos (Sam's Town
and Palms), I wonder if any casino really deserves our admiration
and backing in the
current deteriorating environment. Is there one out there that
consistently deals fairly with
its customers, maintains a high-quality VP inventory, and offers a
good, balanced
marketing program?
Reno Reno is the place!!
i perfer Atlantis, but Peppermill, Silver Legacy, Cal - Neva, El
Dorado, Reno Hilton all have there their fans, check data base at
vpfree- reno ,
M J
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "danbvbv" <dbaise@j...> wrote:
There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. I'm surprised casinos
don't permanently ban "skilled" VP players that only play 100%+ games
and put them on some black book. Casinos exist to make money, and the
only way they can make money is by getting it from you.
I think we should count our blessings and stop whining. Casinos are
beginning to learn that it doesn't matter if it caters to frugal
gamblers who don't like spending a dime more than they have to. Those
gamblers are better off gone and the ones left behind don't understand
or care that there aren't any 100%+ VP machines left.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "azxcvbnm321" <azxcvbnm321@y...>
wrote:
There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. I'm surprised casinos
don't permanently ban "skilled" VP players that only play 100%+
games and put them on some black book.
Perhaps because casinos did not have the technology to tell who was
a skilled VP player. Without software to gauge skill level,
appearences can be deceiving. Do you assume that a genius level
indivdiual who graduated from Williams College and Harvard Law and
was a Cabinet Officer is an advantage player? If so, you 86ed an
$8,000,000 loser. In a certain instance, I heard that a casino ran
back survailance tapes on slow motion to gauge a high roller's
playing accuracy. Of course as technology gets better there may be
more accurate exclusions. Even then it may not be worth it for a
casino to pay for such technology condidering the limited amount of
harm a low limit vp advantage player can do.
Also, casinos rarely share advantage player lists. It seems that
when a new compeditor raids a casino's whales, the established
casino takes a certain perverse pleasure in seeing the new casino
trying to land the sleek and friendly looking black and white whales
(otherwise called orcas).
David
You may be right.
Another theory says to welcome the advantage players as
loss leaders, provide a lot of good games, and promote
vp heavily as a beatable game. If this attracts a lot
of new players, most of whom will probably play poorly,
the casinos might fill some of their empty seats and
increase profits.
···
On 25 Feb 2005 at 18:25, azxcvbnm321 wrote:
There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. I'm surprised casinos
don't permanently ban "skilled" VP players that only play 100%+ games
and put them on some black book. Casinos exist to make money, and the
only way they can make money is by getting it from you.
casinos have some winners and some losers, the way they make money is
by having more losers than winners, a casino with all losers quickly
has no customers, even losers are no longer interested in gambling if
they know there is no way they can win or that if they win they will
be treated like dirt
imagine a lottery where the winner is executed for being a winner -
how many tickets do you think will sell next time?
people gamble because they think they can win and they see some other
people winning and they see those winners treated like winners, take
that away and people won't gamble
land based casinos need to start thinking about how they are going to
compete with internet poker, treating winners like dirt is not going
to work
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "azxcvbnm321" <azxcvbnm321@y...> wrote:
Casinos exist to make money, and the
only way they can make money is by getting it from you.
The idea of welcoming advantage players on a loss leader basis
doesn't make sense. Stores offer loss leaders as a way to get you
into the store and then make money on the non-loss leader items you
purchase, there is nothing profitable to a casino in a true advantage
player. The rest of the post makes more sense.
Actually a more sophisticated niche strategy would be even more
profitable. Why can't more(some) casinos cater to knowlegable
recreational players who want decent games 99%+ with good comps, but
don't demand postive games.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE" <vpFREE@C...> wrote:
Another theory says to welcome the advantage players as
loss leaders, provide a lot of good games, and promote
vp heavily as a beatable game. If this attracts a lot
of new players, most of whom will probably play poorly,
the casinos might fill some of their empty seats and
increase profits.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jaydavidson118" <jaydavidson118@y...>
wrote:
The idea of welcoming advantage players on a loss leader basis
doesn't make sense.
Casinos invite Bob Dancer all the time - think he's not an advantage
player? Sometimes they even pay him to teach classes to train other
people how to beat the casino.
Stores offer loss leaders as a way to get you
into the store and then make money on the non-loss leader items you
purchase,
Purchase non-loss leader items? I don't think so. I only buy at a
discount to wholesale, guess that makes me an advantage shopper. I
only carry zero interest credit card debt, guess that makes me an
advantage charger (I believe the credit card companies call people
like me deadbeats). If my current credit card threatens to end my zero
interest period, i roll it over to a new card that promises me another
zero interest period. A lot of people only play the lotteries when
they are positive, guess that makes them advantage lottery players. I
heard the lotteries are gonna crack down on that soon, everyone knows
lottery winners are evil and should be tarred and feathered. After
all, every lottery win is that much less money for our kids education.
Then there are the people who sign up for new homes and then flip them
later when the prices have risen ... Don't get me started ...
The idea of welcoming advantage players on a loss leader basis
doesn't make sense. Stores offer loss leaders as a way to get you
into the store and then make money on the non-loss leader items you
purchase, there is nothing profitable to a casino in a true
advantage
player. The rest of the post makes more sense.
Don't forget that many retail operations, such as Best Buy, are now
barring "demon customers" who are unprofitable.
There are several TIMES more casino players out there that think that
they can beat the house -- than who actually can. Blackjack and Video
Poker gained reputations as "beatable" games. Now the rules on many
BJ games (6:5 single deck) and Video Poker (short-pay Pick'em) still
let players think that the games are beatable, but also take more
away from non-advantage players.
replies appreicated.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@y...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jaydavidson118"
<jaydavidson118@y...>
wrote:
> The idea of welcoming advantage players on a loss leader basis
> doesn't make sense.Casinos invite Bob Dancer all the time - think he's not an advantage
player? Sometimes they even pay him to teach classes to train other
people how to beat the casino.
That might well be true, BUT, that is not a loss leader strategy,
they are using him as part of a general marketing effort...do you
understand the difference?
> Stores offer loss leaders as a way to get you
> into the store and then make money on the non-loss leader items
you
> purchase,
Purchase non-loss leader items? I don't think so. I only buy at a
discount to wholesale, guess that makes me an advantage shopper. I
only carry zero interest credit card debt, guess that makes me an
advantage charger (I believe the credit card companies call people
like me deadbeats). If my current credit card threatens to end my
zero
interest period, i roll it over to a new card that promises me
another
zero interest period. A lot of people only play the lotteries when
they are positive, guess that makes them advantage lottery players.
I
heard the lotteries are gonna crack down on that soon, everyone
knows
lottery winners are evil and should be tarred and feathered. After
all, every lottery win is that much less money for our kids
education.
Then there are the people who sign up for new homes and then flip
them
later when the prices have risen ... Don't get me started ...
Congratulations you have beaten the sytem!
You must have a very unusual diet if you only purchase non loss
leader items OR must have a Very Low Opportunity Cost that makes it
worth your time chasing down every loss leader event.