When playing on 9/6JoB or 8/5Bonus in almost all cases, WinPoker
tells you to hold unsuited high cards instead of suited K/10 or Q/10,
and sometimes even J/10. I realize that in "the long run", your
results from any given session are not meaningful, therefore if you
miss a royal by keeping unsuited high cards instead of 2 pieces which
include a 10, your overall win/loss ratio will not be affected.
However, for this 6-8 time per year recreational player, missing a
royal due to adhering to this strategy, can be the difference between
a winning or losing trip. Though I try to use the correct strategy at
all times, I have the most problems with this.
On a personal level, I have drawn a royal to every possible hold
including drawing 5 cards. I've drawn a high percentage of royals to
K/10, Q/10 & J/10.(I never hold A/10 except on high progs. & Jokers).
I would be happy to hear your thoughts on ths.
Going for the royal flush on non-prog. machines,
You are giving up over 1% in EV by doing this. As long as you understand
this and place the "psychological" event of not missing the RF as more
important to you even though your long term net should be lower, then do
what you want.
···
-----Original Message-----
From: mardav31331 [mailto:marda…@…net]
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 11:31 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Going for the royal flush on non-prog. machines,
When playing on 9/6JoB or 8/5Bonus in almost all cases, WinPoker
tells you to hold unsuited high cards instead of suited K/10 or Q/10,
and sometimes even J/10. I realize that in "the long run", your
results from any given session are not meaningful, therefore if you
miss a royal by keeping unsuited high cards instead of 2 pieces which
include a 10, your overall win/loss ratio will not be affected.
However, for this 6-8 time per year recreational player, missing a
royal due to adhering to this strategy, can be the difference between
a winning or losing trip. Though I try to use the correct strategy at
all times, I have the most problems with this.
On a personal level, I have drawn a royal to every possible hold
including drawing 5 cards. I've drawn a high percentage of royals to
K/10, Q/10 & J/10.(I never hold A/10 except on high progs. & Jokers).
I would be happy to hear your thoughts on ths.
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
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nion.yahoo.com> click here
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting this link, but I
recently wrote an article that sort of talks about what the original
poster asked.
http://www.casinocitytimes.com/article.cfm?
ContentAndContributorID=11439
Hope this helps
Elliot
You are giving up over 1% in EV by doing this. As long as you
understand
this and place the "psychological" event of not missing the RF as
more
important to you even though your long term net should be lower,
then do
what you want.
From: mardav31331 [mailto:mardav13@c…]
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 11:31 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Going for the royal flush on non-prog. machines,When playing on 9/6JoB or 8/5Bonus in almost all cases, WinPoker
tells you to hold unsuited high cards instead of suited K/10 or
Q/10,
and sometimes even J/10. I realize that in "the long run", your
results from any given session are not meaningful, therefore if you
miss a royal by keeping unsuited high cards instead of 2 pieces
which
include a 10, your overall win/loss ratio will not be affected.
However, for this 6-8 time per year recreational player, missing a
royal due to adhering to this strategy, can be the difference
between
a winning or losing trip. Though I try to use the correct strategy
at
all times, I have the most problems with this.
On a personal level, I have drawn a royal to every possible hold
including drawing 5 cards. I've drawn a high percentage of royals
to
K/10, Q/10 & J/10.(I never hold A/10 except on high progs. &
Jokers).
I would be happy to hear your thoughts on ths.
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129phck4h/M=295196.4901138.6071305.300117
6/D=gr
oups/S=1705065732:HM/EXP=1090780275/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:
/compa
nion.yahoo.com> click here
M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
:HM/A=2128215/rand=528012961>
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···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Randy C" <randyc@U...> wrote:
-----Original Message-----
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
However, for this 6-8 time per year recreational player, missing a
royal due to adhering to this strategy, can be the difference
between
a winning or losing trip. Though I try to use the correct strategy
at
all times, I have the most problems with this.
Suppose the opportunity to do this happens 500 times on a trip. The
odds of hitting the royal this way are 1/16215, so you'll get one
extra royal every 32.4 trips (or one more winning trip every 4-5
years at 6-8 trips per year). But you have 45% less chance to score a
high pair, which will cost around $80 per trip (if we're talking
quarters - multiply all number by 4 for dollars). Partially
offsetting this, you'll get a few more flushes and slightly more
straights, which might give back $45-48 (the straight advantage
depends upon how often the suited face is lower than the unsuited one
that max-EV strategy told you to keep) on an average trip but with
large trip-to-trip fluctuations. So you can expect to lose about $32-
35 more per trip 31.4 times, while making $965 more on one trip.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mardav31331" <mardav13@c...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Elliot Frome" <compuflyers@p...>
wrote:
I hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting this link, but I
recently wrote an article that sort of talks about what the
original
poster asked.
Thanks for the article. I'm kind of new here but I'm pretty sure that
doesn't breaks any rules. If you have a web site or a "collected
articles" page on another site, give us a link to that too.
PS I couldn't get your link to work just by clicking, although when I
copied and pasted both lines into the address box it worked. I think
putting "<" and ">" around the address helps. Let me try that below
for your link:
<http://www.casinocitytimes.com/article.cfm?
ContentAndContributorID=11439>
PS I couldn't get your link to work just by clicking, although when
I
copied and pasted both lines into the address box it worked. I
think
putting "<" and ">" around the address helps. Let me try that below
for your link:
Well, that didn't work either. Is there anyway to get a multi-line
address to link? Maybe that's why everybody around here uses
those "tinyurl" things.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "blaw57" <blaw57@y...> wrote:
--Are you Lenny's son/brother? He was my original Guru and taught me
the principles of VP in the 80's.
I would be very interested in reading your article but
ContentAndContributorID=11439 is not correct according to what my
computer is telling me when I try to bring it up. Can you clarify?
Thanks. Mardav
Ar- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Elliot Frome" <compuflyers@p...>
wrote:
I hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting this link, but I
recently wrote an article that sort of talks about what the
original
poster asked.
http://www.casinocitytimes.com/article.cfm?
ContentAndContributorID=11439Hope this helps
Elliot
> You are giving up over 1% in EV by doing this. As long as you
understand
> this and place the "psychological" event of not missing the RF as
more
> important to you even though your long term net should be lower,
then do
> what you want.
>
>
>
> From: mardav31331 [mailto:mardav13@c…]
> Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 11:31 AM
> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [vpFREE] Going for the royal flush on non-prog. machines,
>
>
>
> When playing on 9/6JoB or 8/5Bonus in almost all cases, WinPoker
> tells you to hold unsuited high cards instead of suited K/10 or
Q/10,
> and sometimes even J/10. I realize that in "the long run", your
> results from any given session are not meaningful, therefore if
you
> miss a royal by keeping unsuited high cards instead of 2 pieces
which
> include a 10, your overall win/loss ratio will not be affected.
> However, for this 6-8 time per year recreational player, missing
a
> royal due to adhering to this strategy, can be the difference
between
> a winning or losing trip. Though I try to use the correct
strategy
at
> all times, I have the most problems with this.
> On a personal level, I have drawn a royal to every possible hold
> including drawing 5 cards. I've drawn a high percentage of
royals
to
> K/10, Q/10 & J/10.(I never hold A/10 except on high progs. &
Jokers).
> I would be happy to hear your thoughts on ths.
>
>
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129phck4h/M=295196.4901138.6071305.300117
6/D=gr
>
oups/S=1705065732:HM/EXP=1090780275/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:
···
— In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Randy C" <randyc@U…> wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
/compa
> nion.yahoo.com> click here
>
>
>
> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?
M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
> :HM/A=2128215/rand=528012961>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> vpFREE-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:vpFREE-unsubscr…@…com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am Lenny's son. After my Dad's passing in 1998, I continued
selling his stuff and occassionally making minor updates. Last year,
I decided to follow in his footsteps more completely, now writing,
analyzing and consulting full time.
you can go to www.casinocitytimes.com and get to the article by
finding my name on the left and checking out my articles. The link I
posted didn't work because it was over 2 lines, so you either have to
type it in, cut & paste in two parts, or I need to figure out how to
use tinyurl stuff.
At the moment, I write for Casino City, Gaming Today and Legends
Magazine (Mohegan Sun's quarterly mag). When I have the time, I hope
to put copies of all the articles on my own website
(www.vpheaven.com) on a 'delay' basis from the originals.
I apologize in advance to anyone who found any of the above
gratuitous or self-promoting. I try to keep a very low profile on
this chat board, but since someone asked, I thought I'd post it.
Thanks
Elliot
--Are you Lenny's son/brother? He was my original Guru and taught
me
the principles of VP in the 80's.
I would be very interested in reading your article but
ContentAndContributorID=11439 is not correct according to what my
computer is telling me when I try to bring it up. Can you clarify?
Thanks. MardavAr- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Elliot Frome" <compuflyers@p...>
wrote:
> I hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting this link, but I
> recently wrote an article that sort of talks about what the
original
> poster asked.
>
> http://www.casinocitytimes.com/article.cfm?
> ContentAndContributorID=11439
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Elliot
> > You are giving up over 1% in EV by doing this. As long as you
> understand
> > this and place the "psychological" event of not missing the RF
as
> more
> > important to you even though your long term net should be
lower,
> then do
> > what you want.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: mardav31331 [mailto:mardav13@c…]
> > Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 11:31 AM
> > To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [vpFREE] Going for the royal flush on non-prog.
machines,
> >
> >
> >
> > When playing on 9/6JoB or 8/5Bonus in almost all cases,
WinPoker
> > tells you to hold unsuited high cards instead of suited K/10 or
> Q/10,
> > and sometimes even J/10. I realize that in "the long run",
your
> > results from any given session are not meaningful, therefore if
you
> > miss a royal by keeping unsuited high cards instead of 2 pieces
> which
> > include a 10, your overall win/loss ratio will not be
affected.
> > However, for this 6-8 time per year recreational player,
missing
a
> > royal due to adhering to this strategy, can be the difference
> between
> > a winning or losing trip. Though I try to use the correct
strategy
> at
> > all times, I have the most problems with this.
> > On a personal level, I have drawn a royal to every possible
hold
> > including drawing 5 cards. I've drawn a high percentage of
royals
> to
> > K/10, Q/10 & J/10.(I never hold A/10 except on high progs. &
> Jokers).
> > I would be happy to hear your thoughts on ths.
> >
> >
> >
> > vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> >
> >
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
>
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129phck4h/M=295196.4901138.6071305.300117
> 6/D=gr
> >
>
oups/S=1705065732:HM/EXP=1090780275/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mardav31331" <mardav13@c...> wrote:
> — In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Randy C" <randyc@U…> wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> /compa
> > nion.yahoo.com> click here
> >
> >
> >
> > <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?
> M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
> > :HM/A=2128215/rand=528012961>
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > vpFREE-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:vpFREE-unsubscr…@…com?subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service
> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"mardav31331" <mardav13@c...> wrote:
When playing on 9/6JoB or 8/5Bonus in almost all cases, WinPoker
tells you to hold unsuited high cards instead of suited K/10 or
Q/10, and sometimes even J/10.
Based on my understanding of Jazbo's strategy cards, I hold the
suited 10 only if the high card I'm discarding is higher than the
high card I'm holding.
That is: I always hold JT suited over J with a high card. I hold QTs
over AQ or KQ offsuit. And I hold KTs over AKoff. Otherwise, I'd
hold the two high cards.
I realize that Jazbo's cards are designed for progressive royals, &
the strategy I looked at is designed to work best for a range of low
progessives. Perhaps on a non-progressive machine, it's best to
always hold the 2 high cards over the RF2 w/T, but the strategy
above is better with even a small progressive?
Do I understand correctly? Does this get me close enough to the max
EV strategy for deciding between holding 2 high cards & and a 2-card
royal with a 10? I don't want to get into the complexity of penalty
cards, but want to play simply & close to correctly.
Stuart (RandomStu)
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/mypage.htm
Here's the tiny url link:
<a href="http://tinyurl.com/3hw7l">
http://tinyurl.com/3hw7l</a>
vpFREE Administrator
···
On 24 Jul 2004 at 21:08, Elliot Frome wrote:
you can go to www.casinocitytimes.com and get to the article by
finding my name on the left and checking out my articles. The link I
posted didn't work because it was over 2 lines, so you either have to
type it in, cut & paste in two parts, or I need to figure out how to
use tinyurl stuff.
Stuart wrote:
"mardav31331" <mardav13@c...> wrote:
> When playing on 9/6JoB or 8/5Bonus in almost all cases, WinPoker
> tells you to hold unsuited high cards instead of suited K/10 or
> Q/10, and sometimes even J/10.Based on my understanding of Jazbo's strategy cards, I hold the
suited 10 only if the high card I'm discarding is higher than the
high card I'm holding.
I'm not familiar with Jazbo's cards, but I'll take your word that the rest of your post reflects same; now let's take a look at the strategy decisions, accordingly (and this assumes full-coin play on a non-progressive machine):
That is: I always hold JT suited over J with a high card.
This might be good enough for government work 
... that is, good enough for basic or intermediate play ... but it is wrong in any JoB-9/6 hand in which you are dealt a JT-suited plus an unsuited Q, regardless of any flush penalties. In other words, you always keep the QJ, whether suited or not, rather than to go with the JT-suited. The other exception is with regard to an unsuited-King IF THERE IS A FLUSH PENALTY on the JT-suited. In other words, if you were dealt JT3-suited K-unsuited, you would keep the KJ-unsuited because of the flush-penalty caused by the suited-3. There isn't much difference in EV for those hands, I suppose, but I always practice and play at 100% accuracy because I find it to be more fun.
I hold QTs
over AQ or KQ offsuit.
This is wrong, too -- at least for JoB-9/6 full-coin. You always keep the KQ-unsuited over the QT-suited, regardless of whether there is a flush-penalty or not, and you keep the AQ-unsuited over the QT-suited _only_ when there is a flush penalty.
And I hold KTs over AKoff.
This is wrong. Never hold the KT-suited if there is ANY other high-card to go with the King. Also, don't hold the KT-suited if there happens to be both a flush-penalty plus a '9' in the discard (e.g.: KT3-suited 9X-unsuited = keep the King only).
Otherwise, I'd
hold the two high cards.I realize that Jazbo's cards are designed for progressive royals, &
the strategy I looked at is designed to work best for a range of low
progessives. Perhaps on a non-progressive machine, it's best to
always hold the 2 high cards over the RF2 w/T, but the strategy
above is better with even a small progressive?
At some point an elevated Royal value will begin to change some of those strategies I've mentioned, but I don't know at what point that happens, or how much of a difference it makes. It might be that the strategy is absolutely accurate once you find a progressive that turns the machine positive.
Do I understand correctly? Does this get me close enough to the max
EV strategy for deciding between holding 2 high cards & and a 2-card
royal with a 10? I don't want to get into the complexity of penalty
cards, but want to play simply & close to correctly.
Stu, I've found that the penalty card considerations add very little to the complexity of the game ... at least not for JoB-9/6 in regular, non-progressive, full-coin play ... so I just learned how to play them.
Cheers.
Bill Velek
I'm not going to analyze this too deeply as there are others who do that far better, but I will say the results of individual sessions are not without meaning, and the contribution to the return of the game for the small hands should not be underestimated IMO --The JB pair in a JOB game accounts for about 20% of return while the royal accounts for about 2%, for example.
···
At 01:31 PM 7/24/2004, you wrote:
I realize that in "the long run", your
results from any given session are not meaningful, therefore if you
miss a royal by keeping unsuited high cards instead of 2 pieces which
include a 10, your overall win/loss ratio will not be affected.
However, for this 6-8 time per year recreational player, missing a
royal due to adhering to this strategy, can be the difference between
a winning or losing trip.
according to frugalvp, er=.9954, variance=19.4
3SF0=open, single inside 1 high card, double inside 2 high cards
3SF1=single inside, double inside 1 high card
3SF2=double inside (two internal gaps)
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Stuart" <sresnick2@c...> wrote:
I don't want to get into the complexity of penalty
cards, but want to play simply & close to correctly.
4RF>PAT>4SF>HP>3RF>4FL>KQJT>LP>4STo>3SF0>
2RF2H>4STi3H>3SF1>KQJ>2H>JTs>QTs>1H>3SF2