vpFREE2 Forums

Gambling With an Edge Feb 17th

#1

Two: You made no judgments as the to rightness or wrongness of such behavior.

He might not have come right out and said it, but I think Mickey's opinion about which behavior is better is clear.

Or are you instead saying that IT SHOULD be human nature to be greedy and self serving? (If this is what you mean, I can only hope you are wrong.)

Ayn Rand regarded altruism as a great evil and selfishness as the ultimate virtue. I think what she was really saying is that justice is the great value. Mickey's example shows why. I can't remember the details of when and where it was or what he was comparing it to, but an American colonist wrote about how those who reaped the benefits of their own labor by owning their own land were more productive. It's the American way.

What I'd like to know is if they made Greenpeace members split tips if their productivity would go down. I believe poker dealers might be a slightly biased sample

More idealistic people may be able to "hold out" longer, but they still face "worker burnout" if they neglect themselves too much.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank" <frank@progressivevp.com>

#2

Perhaps I'll have to rethink my position. I'm not locked into any immutable mindset on all this. I know just enough to know, I don't know ()*&^.

~FK

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, 007 <007@...> wrote:
Ayn Rand regarded altruism as a great evil and selfishness as the ultimate virtue. I think what she was really saying is that justice is the great value. Mickey's example shows why. I can't remember the details of when and where it was or what he was comparing it to, but an American colonist wrote about how those who reaped the benefits of their own labor by owning their own land were more productive. It's the American way.

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>What I'd like to know is if they made Greenpeace members split tips if their productivity would go down. I believe poker dealers might be a slightly biased sample

More idealistic people may be able to "hold out" longer, but they still face "worker burnout" if they neglect themselves too much.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#3

�There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns � the ones we don't know we don't know.� � Former United States Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld

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--
Mike Starr WriteStarr Information Services
Technical Writer - Online Help Developer - Technical Illustrator
Graphic Designer - Desktop Publisher - MS Office Expert
(262) 694-1028 - mike@writestarr.com - http://www.writestarr.com

On 2/21/2011 5:07 PM, Frank wrote:

Perhaps I'll have to rethink my position. I'm not locked into any immutable mindset on all this. I know just enough to know, I don't know ()*&^.

~FK

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, 007<007@...> wrote:
Ayn Rand regarded altruism as a great evil and selfishness as the ultimate virtue. I think what she was really saying is that justice is the great value. Mickey's example shows why. I can't remember the details of when and where it was or what he was comparing it to, but an American colonist wrote about how those who reaped the benefits of their own labor by owning their own land were more productive. It's the American way.

What I'd like to know is if they made Greenpeace members split tips if their productivity would go down. I believe poker dealers might be a slightly biased sample

More idealistic people may be able to "hold out" longer, but they still face "worker burnout" if they neglect themselves too much.

#4

What Ayn Rand was saying is in line with the dictionary definition of
selfishness, i.e. being concerned with one's own interest and the advancement
thereof.

Not the essentially negative connotation that is typically ascribed to
"selfishness" by those who feel it is YOUR duty to provide the fruits of YOUR
efforts to those who do nothing to deserve them, have no legitimate right to
them, and in fact feel they are entitled to them, simply because they want them.

Perhaps I'll have to rethink my position. I'm not locked into any immutable
mindset on all this. I know just enough to know, I don't know ()*&^.

~FK

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, 007 <007@...> wrote:
Ayn Rand regarded altruism as a great evil and selfishness as the ultimate
virtue. I think what she was really saying is that justice is the great value.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#5

"Greed is good." - Gordon Gecko

···

--
Mike Starr WriteStarr Information Services
Technical Writer - Online Help Developer - Technical Illustrator
Graphic Designer - Desktop Publisher - MS Office Expert
(262) 694-1028 - mike@writestarr.com - http://www.writestarr.com

On 2/21/2011 5:53 PM, GURU PERF wrote:

What Ayn Rand was saying is in line with the dictionary definition of
selfishness, i.e. being concerned with one's own interest and the advancement
thereof.

Not the essentially negative connotation that is typically ascribed to
"selfishness" by those who feel it is YOUR duty to provide the fruits of YOUR
efforts to those who do nothing to deserve them, have no legitimate right to
them, and in fact feel they are entitled to them, simply because they want them.

#6

---Mike Starr wrote:

"There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know."

— Former United States Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld

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*********

"Knowledge is Good"

...from the Faber College Alma Mater statue.

#7

"Altruism as a great evil "?? What she was saying is typical conservative,
misguided logic.!!

"The American way??" Soon, China will be dominating the 'American way!"

···

-------Original Message-------

From: 007
Date: 2/21/2011 5:54:27 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Gambling With an Edge Feb 17th

  "Ayn Rand regarded altruism as a great evil and selfishness as the
ultimate virtue."
I think what she was really saying is that justice is the great value.
Mickey's example shows why. I can't remember the details of when and where
it was or what he was comparing it to, but an American colonist wrote about
how those who reaped the benefits of their own labor by owning their own
land were more productive. It's the American way.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#8

If you're going to be talking about Ayn Rand's philosophy, at least give her the
justice of first, understanding, and second, accurately conveying, what she
espouses.

"Do not hide behind such superficialities as whether you should or should not
give a dime to a beggar. That is not the issue. The issue is whether you do or
do not have the right to exist without giving him that dime. The issue is
whether you must keep buying your life, dime by dime, from any beggar who might
choose to approach you. The issue is whether the need of others is the first
mortgage on your life and the moral purpose of your existence. The issue is
whether man is to be regarded as a sacrificial animal. Any man of self-esteem
will answer: “No.” Altruism says: “Yes.”

""Now there is one word—a single word—which can blast the morality of altruism
out of existence and which it cannot withstand—the word: “Why?” Why must man
live for the sake of others? Why must he be a sacrificial animal? Why is that
the good? There is no earthly reason for it—and, ladies and gentlemen, in the
whole history of philosophy no earthly reason has ever been given.

It is only mysticism that can permit moralists to get away with it. It was
mysticism, the unearthly, the supernatural, the irrational that has always been
called upon to justify it—or, to be exact, to escape the necessity of
justification. One does not justify the irrational, one just takes it on faith.
What most moralists—and few of their victims—realize is that reason and altruism
are incompatible.""

Further detail may be found at:

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/selfishness.html

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/altruism.html

"Altruism as a great evil "?? What she was saying is typical conservative,
misguided logic.!!

"The American way??" Soon, China will be dominating the 'American way!"

"Ayn Rand regarded altruism as a great evil and selfishness as the
ultimate virtue."
I think what she was really saying is that justice is the great value.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#9

I agree 100 percent!!

···

-----Original Message-----
From: GURU PERF <guruperf@att.net>
To: vpFREE <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:35 pm
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Gambling With an Edge Feb 17th

If you're going to be talking about Ayn Rand's philosophy, at least give her the
justice of first, understanding, and second, accurately conveying, what she
espouses.

"Do not hide behind such superficialities as whether you should or should not
give a dime to a beggar. That is not the issue. The issue is whether you do or
do not have the right to exist without giving him that dime. The issue is
whether you must keep buying your life, dime by dime, from any beggar who might
choose to approach you. The issue is whether the need of others is the first
mortgage on your life and the moral purpose of your existence. The issue is
whether man is to be regarded as a sacrificial animal. Any man of self-esteem
will answer: “No.” Altruism says: “Yes.”

""Now there is one word—a single word—which can blast the morality of altruism
out of existence and which it cannot withstand—the word: “Why?” Why must man
live for the sake of others? Why must he be a sacrificial animal? Why is that
the good? There is no earthly reason for it—and, ladies and gentlemen, in the
whole history of philosophy no earthly reason has ever been given.

It is only mysticism that can permit moralists to get away with it. It was
mysticism, the unearthly, the supernatural, the irrational that has always been
called upon to justify it—or, to be exact, to escape the necessity of
justification. One does not justify the irrational, one just takes it on faith.
What most moralists—and few of their victims—realize is that reason and altruism
are incompatible.""

Further detail may be found at:

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/selfishness.html

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/altruism.html

"Altruism as a great evil "?? What she was saying is typical conservative,
misguided logic.!!

"The American way??" Soon, China will be dominating the 'American way!"

"Ayn Rand regarded altruism as a great evil and selfishness as the
ultimate virtue."
I think what she was really saying is that justice is the great value.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]