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Gambler Wins Case Against IRS About Gambling Records

Sorry if this has been discussed already here. I'm a lurker now after
years of reading, but thought I'd pass this article along.

From the San Diego Union Tribune
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080316-9999-1n16frank.html
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080316-9999-1n16frank.html>

Gamblers must pay taxes on winnings minus losses. Gagliardi and the IRS
disagreed on whether he had properly accounted for his losses, which he
was sure were more than his winnings.

The case turned out to be another Gagliardi jackpot. In January, a judge
found Gagliardi's report of his massive losses credible and ruled
against the IRS, establishing what likely is a national tax-law
precedent.

Because of Gagliardi, gamblers can now back up their claims of losses
with receipts and records. That is a significant change from the IRS'
advice, which is often ignored, that bettors keep a written log of all
gambling activity, said Alvin Brown, who was among the tax lawyers
across the nation who highlighted the case on the Internet.

--DB in SD

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think keeping diary is the ultimate way to keep gambling records.
However, if you visit the gambling joint and always stay till you
are broke, the player has a good point; he had to come out behind.

Cheers
.
.

Sorry if this has been discussed already here. I'm a lurker now

after

years of reading, but thought I'd pass this article along.

From the San Diego Union Tribune
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080316-9999-

1n16frank.html

<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080316-9999-

1n16frank.html>

Gamblers must pay taxes on winnings minus losses. Gagliardi and

the IRS

disagreed on whether he had properly accounted for his losses,

which he

was sure were more than his winnings.

The case turned out to be another Gagliardi jackpot. In January, a

judge

found Gagliardi's report of his massive losses credible and ruled
against the IRS, establishing what likely is a national tax-law
precedent.

Because of Gagliardi, gamblers can now back up their claims of

losses

with receipts and records. That is a significant change from the

IRS'

advice, which is often ignored, that bettors keep a written log of

all

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "sdjbravo" <sdbravo@...> wrote:

gambling activity, said Alvin Brown, who was among the tax lawyers
across the nation who highlighted the case on the Internet.

--DB in SD

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you Mr. Gagliardi. One small victory for commonsense in the
IRS treatment of gambling winnings. This ruling should allow anyone
to throw away their gambling diary as long as they use a players
card. I would think the casino win/loss statement should be
sufficient now. Of course serious advantage players will still keep
detailed records.

Chris

Sorry if this has been discussed already here. I'm a lurker now

after

years of reading, but thought I'd pass this article along.

From the San Diego Union Tribune
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080316-9999-

1n16frank.html

<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080316-9999-

1n16frank.html>

Gamblers must pay taxes on winnings minus losses. Gagliardi and the

IRS

disagreed on whether he had properly accounted for his losses,

which he

was sure were more than his winnings.

The case turned out to be another Gagliardi jackpot. In January, a

judge

found Gagliardi's report of his massive losses credible and ruled
against the IRS, establishing what likely is a national tax-law
precedent.

Because of Gagliardi, gamblers can now back up their claims of

losses

with receipts and records. That is a significant change from the

IRS'

advice, which is often ignored, that bettors keep a written log of

all

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "sdjbravo" <sdbravo@...> wrote:

gambling activity, said Alvin Brown, who was among the tax lawyers
across the nation who highlighted the case on the Internet.

--DB in SD

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kcace1024 wrote:

Thank you Mr. Gagliardi. One small victory for commonsense in the
IRS treatment of gambling winnings. This ruling should allow anyone
to throw away their gambling diary as long as they use a players
card. I would think the casino win/loss statement should be
sufficient now. Of course serious advantage players will still keep
detailed records.

I wouldn't make that presumption.

In the trial case, "expert" testimony was sufficient to convince the
judge that a tremendous volume of slot play, in which the casino had
an indisputable short-term profit expectation, made it extraordinarily
unlikely that the player turned a profit short of a Megabucks win.

Unless you're prepared to haul an IGT consultant and a psychologist
into your IRS examination, or have record lotto winnings to fall back
on to finance your tax court appeal, I'd stick to maintaining a
gambling diary. Gagliardi is an exceptional case; not the norm.

- Harry

Sorry if this has been discussed already here. I'm a lurker now

after

years of reading, but thought I'd pass this article along.

From the San Diego Union Tribune
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080316-9999-

1n16frank.html

<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080316-9999-

1n16frank.html>

Gamblers must pay taxes on winnings minus losses. Gagliardi and the

IRS

disagreed on whether he had properly accounted for his losses,

which he

was sure were more than his winnings.

The case turned out to be another Gagliardi jackpot. In January, a

judge

found Gagliardi's report of his massive losses credible and ruled
against the IRS, establishing what likely is a national tax-law
precedent.

Because of Gagliardi, gamblers can now back up their claims of

losses

with receipts and records. That is a significant change from the

IRS'

advice, which is often ignored, that bettors keep a written log of

all

gambling activity, said Alvin Brown, who was among the tax lawyers
across the nation who highlighted the case on the Internet.

--DB in SD

This whole issue is basically ridiculous. The IRS knows his income is
from lottery winnings. I'm trying to determine what he is doing here.
Is he trying to offset the taxes on his yearly lottery check by
claiming huge losses from the casino. If he was getting a $1.3
million annuity from business investements and paid taxes on that and
then claimed whatever he won in the casino he lost I think the IRS
could care less. I think he's trying to pay zero taxes in a year by
saying he is gambling away his lottery winnings. The IRS thinks their
getting scammed. Most professional gamblers have no other income so
when they say lost for the year the IRS wants to know how they lived.
This guy has tons of disposable income. What he does with it is his
choice.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "sdjbravo" <sdbravo@...> wrote:

Harry,

I usually agree with your logic, but not this time. I think you
underestimate the power of precedent that attaches to a case like
this. There is some real irony in the IRS's statement that "we can't
just take your word" because what is a gambling diary, but your word
on paper. A win/loss statement has much more probitive value because
it is from another party. Why aren't you allowed to keep a diary of
your wages instead of using a W-2? Why are self-employed audited
more than wage earners because the IRS knows that most people fudge
their diaries. Some even keep a second set of books.

The IGT consultant has now established in court the obvious fact that
anyone who plays negative games on a regular basis will not make a
profit. The burden of proof has now been shifted to the IRS to
explain how someone can make a lot of money playing slots on a
regular basis.

The IRS now knows it will be hard to stick it to a gambler just
because he does not have perfect records including the worthless
gambling diary.

Chris

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...>
wrote:

kcace1024 wrote:
> Thank you Mr. Gagliardi. One small victory for commonsense in

the

> IRS treatment of gambling winnings. This ruling should allow

anyone

> to throw away their gambling diary as long as they use a players
> card. I would think the casino win/loss statement should be
> sufficient now. Of course serious advantage players will still

keep

> detailed records.

I wouldn't make that presumption.

In the trial case, "expert" testimony was sufficient to convince the
judge that a tremendous volume of slot play, in which the casino had
an indisputable short-term profit expectation, made it

extraordinarily

unlikely that the player turned a profit short of a Megabucks win.

Unless you're prepared to haul an IGT consultant and a psychologist
into your IRS examination, or have record lotto winnings to fall

back

···

on to finance your tax court appeal, I'd stick to maintaining a
gambling diary. Gagliardi is an exceptional case; not the norm.

- Harry

kcace1024 wrote:

Harry,
I usually agree with your logic, but not this time. I think you
underestimate the power of precedent that attaches to a case like
this. There is some real irony in the IRS's statement that "we can't
just take your word" because what is a gambling diary, but your word
on paper. A win/loss statement has much more probitive value because
it is from another party. Why aren't you allowed to keep a diary of
your wages instead of using a W-2? Why are self-employed audited
more than wage earners because the IRS knows that most people fudge
their diaries. Some even keep a second set of books.

The IGT consultant has now established in court the obvious fact that
anyone who plays negative games on a regular basis will not make a
profit. The burden of proof has now been shifted to the IRS to
explain how someone can make a lot of money playing slots on a
regular basis.

The IRS now knows it will be hard to stick it to a gambler just
because he does not have perfect records including the worthless
gambling diary.

The tax court decision
http://www.ustaxcourt.gov/InOpHistoric/GAGLIARDI.TCM.WPD.pdf
notes at the outset that the key question is, "Whether petitioner
substantiated the amounts of his claimed gambling losses".

It's necessary to weigh what the judges relied upon in finding in
favor of the taxpayer to determine whether the decision applies
generally to all gamblers, or only those who share very specific
attributes with the gambler in this case.

Ultimately, here is what the case cites as the necessary loss
substantiation that satisfied the judges:

(Note: "respondent" refers to the IRS; included in this statement is
that the IRS had accepted the submitted documentation as establishing
a portion of the claimed losses, but not all):

"The voluminous contemporaneous and other documentary
evidence, the corroborating testimonial evidence of an eyewitness
to petitioner's gambling and daily activities during the years in
issue and of petitioner's return preparer, and the testimonial
evidence of two experts in addition to petitioner's testimony
substantiate and establish that petitioner incurred the
disallowed gambling losses."

"We conclude that petitioner substantiated the amount of
disallowed gambling deductions in issue (i.e., in excess of the
amount respondent conceded--see supra pp. 16-17). Accordingly,
we do not sustain respondent's disallowance of the gambling loss
deductions Mr. Gagliardi claimed for 1999, 2000, and 2001. See
also Jackson v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo. 2007-373 ("At trial,
respondent conceded that petitioner had presented sufficient
documentation to substantiate $127,165 in gambling losses"; "This
documentation consisted of casino ATM receipts, canceled checks
made payable to casinos, carbon copies of checks made payable to
casinos, and credit card statements stating that cash was
advanced at the casinos.")."

It's interesting to note that casino-sourced win/loss statements were
not one of the documents submitted to substantiate losses.

Instead, there was a steady record of receipts documenting the source
of gambling funds. That, at least in part, satisfied the court's
thirst for some type of contemporaneous documentation of play (even
though not a log).

This was supplemented with testimony that attested to the specific
gaming involved as having an expected payback of no greater than 90%,
and quite likely less than 80% -- with the consequence that it was
next to statistically impossible that the gambler might have come away
from any year a winner.

Further, a statement of cashflow accounting for the taxpayer was
submitted to further establish that there was evidence of a steady
outflow related to the gambling activity.

···

------

I'll agree that there may be some room that as a consequence of this
case an examiner might be willing to accept receipts of cash draws as
potential evidence of losses, in absence of the desired
contemporaneous diary.

However, my real expectation is that in absence of authoritative
documentation that your gaming had a sharply negative expectation
comparable to the taxpayer in this case (and I wouldn't expect a
presumption that all machine gaming has lousy odds) an examiner would
find that documentation insufficient.

If called into an examination, I view the prospects of a gambler who
is prepared merely with a set of win/loss statements to be meager, at
best.

Concerning a diary, there's no question that it's fraught with the
potential of fraudulent preparation. That's true of any number of
accounting documents that are relied upon to substantiate tax returns.

An analogy of a casino diary to W-2 wage reporting is specious. A
comparison of W-2G reporting and W-2 submission by employers has some
validity, however. It's to be noted that if you wish to deduct
employee expenses against reporting wages (outside of those reimbursed
by the employer), it's expected that you'll maintain a similar
contemporaneous diary to substantiate those expenses.

I speak here merely as an accountant/financial analyst who doesn't
prepare tax returns professionally. It would be interesting to see
insight from someone such as Marissa Chien, EA.

- Harry

Harry Porter wrote,

"It would be interesting to see insight from someone such as Marissa Chien, EA."

I wrote about the decision back in January when it came out at http://www.taxabletalk.com/posts/1201212605.shtml I concluded, "There are two other important points to this case. First, Mr. Gagliardi had to go to Tax Court, hire two attorneys, have expert testimony, and then he won his case. Had he kept a gambling log it's likely he wouldn't have needed to go through the effort. And second, the IRS has a lot of problems dealing with gamblers. Most of the personnel within the IRS doesn't have experience with gambling, and even an IRS attorney had trouble explaining an IRS-suggested procedure on gambling (a gambling log)."

Is the decision helpful? Yes; you can win a fight against the IRS without a gambling log. But as I noted I guarantee that Mr. Gagliardi spent a lot more than the $1.99 it costs to buy a pocket notebook and a cheap pen at a stationary/office supply store on the expert testimony and his attorney fees.

-- Russ Fox, EA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, if the federal governemnt wants win/loss statements from
casinos than lets all go get some players that never use cards (and
there are many) and just let them use one of our cards. I bet we all
would end up with losing years. That is basically what is wrong with
that theory. Anyone can use someone elses card. Not to mention -
the one major factor: NO ONE IS REQUIRED TO HAVE A CASINO PLAYERS
CARD. Not the govt or the casino makes it a requirement for the
purpose of gambling.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...>
wrote:

kcace1024 wrote:
> Harry,
> I usually agree with your logic, but not this time. I think you
> underestimate the power of precedent that attaches to a case like
> this. There is some real irony in the IRS's statement that "we

can't

> just take your word" because what is a gambling diary, but your

word

> on paper. A win/loss statement has much more probitive value

because

> it is from another party. Why aren't you allowed to keep a diary

of

> your wages instead of using a W-2? Why are self-employed audited
> more than wage earners because the IRS knows that most people

fudge

> their diaries. Some even keep a second set of books.
>
> The IGT consultant has now established in court the obvious fact

that

> anyone who plays negative games on a regular basis will not make

a

> profit. The burden of proof has now been shifted to the IRS to
> explain how someone can make a lot of money playing slots on a
> regular basis.
>
> The IRS now knows it will be hard to stick it to a gambler just
> because he does not have perfect records including the worthless
> gambling diary.

The tax court decision
http://www.ustaxcourt.gov/InOpHistoric/GAGLIARDI.TCM.WPD.pdf
notes at the outset that the key question is, "Whether petitioner
substantiated the amounts of his claimed gambling losses".

It's necessary to weigh what the judges relied upon in finding in
favor of the taxpayer to determine whether the decision applies
generally to all gamblers, or only those who share very specific
attributes with the gambler in this case.

Ultimately, here is what the case cites as the necessary loss
substantiation that satisfied the judges:

(Note: "respondent" refers to the IRS; included in this statement is
that the IRS had accepted the submitted documentation as

establishing

a portion of the claimed losses, but not all):

"The voluminous contemporaneous and other documentary
evidence, the corroborating testimonial evidence of an eyewitness
to petitioner's gambling and daily activities during the years in
issue and of petitioner's return preparer, and the testimonial
evidence of two experts in addition to petitioner's testimony
substantiate and establish that petitioner incurred the
disallowed gambling losses."

"We conclude that petitioner substantiated the amount of
disallowed gambling deductions in issue (i.e., in excess of the
amount respondent conceded--see supra pp. 16-17). Accordingly,
we do not sustain respondent's disallowance of the gambling loss
deductions Mr. Gagliardi claimed for 1999, 2000, and 2001. See
also Jackson v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo. 2007-373 ("At trial,
respondent conceded that petitioner had presented sufficient
documentation to substantiate $127,165 in gambling losses"; "This
documentation consisted of casino ATM receipts, canceled checks
made payable to casinos, carbon copies of checks made payable to
casinos, and credit card statements stating that cash was
advanced at the casinos.")."

It's interesting to note that casino-sourced win/loss statements

were

not one of the documents submitted to substantiate losses.

Instead, there was a steady record of receipts documenting the

source

of gambling funds. That, at least in part, satisfied the court's
thirst for some type of contemporaneous documentation of play (even
though not a log).

This was supplemented with testimony that attested to the specific
gaming involved as having an expected payback of no greater than

90%,

and quite likely less than 80% -- with the consequence that it was
next to statistically impossible that the gambler might have come

away

from any year a winner.

Further, a statement of cashflow accounting for the taxpayer was
submitted to further establish that there was evidence of a steady
outflow related to the gambling activity.

------

I'll agree that there may be some room that as a consequence of this
case an examiner might be willing to accept receipts of cash draws

as

potential evidence of losses, in absence of the desired
contemporaneous diary.

However, my real expectation is that in absence of authoritative
documentation that your gaming had a sharply negative expectation
comparable to the taxpayer in this case (and I wouldn't expect a
presumption that all machine gaming has lousy odds) an examiner

would

find that documentation insufficient.

If called into an examination, I view the prospects of a gambler who
is prepared merely with a set of win/loss statements to be meager,

at

best.

Concerning a diary, there's no question that it's fraught with the
potential of fraudulent preparation. That's true of any number of
accounting documents that are relied upon to substantiate tax

returns.

An analogy of a casino diary to W-2 wage reporting is specious. A
comparison of W-2G reporting and W-2 submission by employers has

some

validity, however. It's to be noted that if you wish to deduct
employee expenses against reporting wages (outside of those

reimbursed

···

by the employer), it's expected that you'll maintain a similar
contemporaneous diary to substantiate those expenses.

I speak here merely as an accountant/financial analyst who doesn't
prepare tax returns professionally. It would be interesting to see
insight from someone such as Marissa Chien, EA.

- Harry

Harry,

You are starting to sound like a lawyer and actually we need a
lawyer's opinion not Marissa Chien's. I am sure Marissa could
provide valuable information, but she is in the business of providing
the safest approach for dealing with the IRS. Look at the problems
some have with session reporting versus W-2 reporting. The IRS is
big slow machine, but this case has changed the game in the
taxpayer's favor as far as record keeping goes.

I found it very strange that win/loss stements were not mentioned in
this case. I see a win/loss statement as much better than any of the
other evidence of loss presented in this case. I do not see how a
win/loss statement can be considered "meager at best."

Chris

The tax court decision
http://www.ustaxcourt.gov/InOpHistoric/GAGLIARDI.TCM.WPD.pdf
notes at the outset that the key question is, "Whether petitioner
substantiated the amounts of his claimed gambling losses".

It's necessary to weigh what the judges relied upon in finding in
favor of the taxpayer to determine whether the decision applies
generally to all gamblers, or only those who share very specific
attributes with the gambler in this case.

Ultimately, here is what the case cites as the necessary loss
substantiation that satisfied the judges:

(Note: "respondent" refers to the IRS; included in this statement is
that the IRS had accepted the submitted documentation as

establishing

a portion of the claimed losses, but not all):

"The voluminous contemporaneous and other documentary
evidence, the corroborating testimonial evidence of an eyewitness
to petitioner's gambling and daily activities during the years in
issue and of petitioner's return preparer, and the testimonial
evidence of two experts in addition to petitioner's testimony
substantiate and establish that petitioner incurred the
disallowed gambling losses."

"We conclude that petitioner substantiated the amount of
disallowed gambling deductions in issue (i.e., in excess of the
amount respondent conceded--see supra pp. 16-17). Accordingly,
we do not sustain respondent's disallowance of the gambling loss
deductions Mr. Gagliardi claimed for 1999, 2000, and 2001. See
also Jackson v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo. 2007-373 ("At trial,
respondent conceded that petitioner had presented sufficient
documentation to substantiate $127,165 in gambling losses"; "This
documentation consisted of casino ATM receipts, canceled checks
made payable to casinos, carbon copies of checks made payable to
casinos, and credit card statements stating that cash was
advanced at the casinos.")."

It's interesting to note that casino-sourced win/loss statements

were

not one of the documents submitted to substantiate losses.

Instead, there was a steady record of receipts documenting the

source

of gambling funds. That, at least in part, satisfied the court's
thirst for some type of contemporaneous documentation of play (even
though not a log).

This was supplemented with testimony that attested to the specific
gaming involved as having an expected payback of no greater than

90%,

and quite likely less than 80% -- with the consequence that it was
next to statistically impossible that the gambler might have come

away

from any year a winner.

Further, a statement of cashflow accounting for the taxpayer was
submitted to further establish that there was evidence of a steady
outflow related to the gambling activity.

------

I'll agree that there may be some room that as a consequence of this
case an examiner might be willing to accept receipts of cash draws

as

potential evidence of losses, in absence of the desired
contemporaneous diary.

However, my real expectation is that in absence of authoritative
documentation that your gaming had a sharply negative expectation
comparable to the taxpayer in this case (and I wouldn't expect a
presumption that all machine gaming has lousy odds) an examiner

would

find that documentation insufficient.

If called into an examination, I view the prospects of a gambler who
is prepared merely with a set of win/loss statements to be meager,

at

best.

Concerning a diary, there's no question that it's fraught with the
potential of fraudulent preparation. That's true of any number of
accounting documents that are relied upon to substantiate tax

returns.

An analogy of a casino diary to W-2 wage reporting is specious. A
comparison of W-2G reporting and W-2 submission by employers has

some

validity, however. It's to be noted that if you wish to deduct
employee expenses against reporting wages (outside of those

reimbursed

···

by the employer), it's expected that you'll maintain a similar
contemporaneous diary to substantiate those expenses.

I speak here merely as an accountant/financial analyst who doesn't
prepare tax returns professionally. It would be interesting to see
insight from someone such as Marissa Chien, EA.

- Harry

I have mentioned in a previous post why win/loss statements are not
all they are cracked up to be in my opinion but I forgot to mention
that I can tell you for a fact that many small casinos and many
indian casinos do not issue them. One place told me they never even
heard of one and would not have any idea how to issue one. I
personally think its a roll of the dice. Some gamblers will win
against the IRS and some won't. Maybe the judge makes a difference.
I doubt anyone will ever know for usre.

Harry,

You are starting to sound like a lawyer and actually we need a
lawyer's opinion not Marissa Chien's. I am sure Marissa could
provide valuable information, but she is in the business of

providing

the safest approach for dealing with the IRS. Look at the problems
some have with session reporting versus W-2 reporting. The IRS is
big slow machine, but this case has changed the game in the
taxpayer's favor as far as record keeping goes.

I found it very strange that win/loss stements were not mentioned

in

this case. I see a win/loss statement as much better than any of

the

other evidence of loss presented in this case. I do not see how a
win/loss statement can be considered "meager at best."

Chris

>
> The tax court decision
> http://www.ustaxcourt.gov/InOpHistoric/GAGLIARDI.TCM.WPD.pdf
> notes at the outset that the key question is, "Whether petitioner
> substantiated the amounts of his claimed gambling losses".
>
> It's necessary to weigh what the judges relied upon in finding in
> favor of the taxpayer to determine whether the decision applies
> generally to all gamblers, or only those who share very specific
> attributes with the gambler in this case.
>
> Ultimately, here is what the case cites as the necessary loss
> substantiation that satisfied the judges:
>
> (Note: "respondent" refers to the IRS; included in this statement

is

> that the IRS had accepted the submitted documentation as
establishing
> a portion of the claimed losses, but not all):
>
> "The voluminous contemporaneous and other documentary
> evidence, the corroborating testimonial evidence of an eyewitness
> to petitioner's gambling and daily activities during the years in
> issue and of petitioner's return preparer, and the testimonial
> evidence of two experts in addition to petitioner's testimony
> substantiate and establish that petitioner incurred the
> disallowed gambling losses."
>
> "We conclude that petitioner substantiated the amount of
> disallowed gambling deductions in issue (i.e., in excess of the
> amount respondent conceded--see supra pp. 16-17). Accordingly,
> we do not sustain respondent's disallowance of the gambling loss
> deductions Mr. Gagliardi claimed for 1999, 2000, and 2001. See
> also Jackson v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo. 2007-373 ("At trial,
> respondent conceded that petitioner had presented sufficient
> documentation to substantiate $127,165 in gambling losses"; "This
> documentation consisted of casino ATM receipts, canceled checks
> made payable to casinos, carbon copies of checks made payable to
> casinos, and credit card statements stating that cash was
> advanced at the casinos.")."
>
>
> It's interesting to note that casino-sourced win/loss statements
were
> not one of the documents submitted to substantiate losses.
>
> Instead, there was a steady record of receipts documenting the
source
> of gambling funds. That, at least in part, satisfied the court's
> thirst for some type of contemporaneous documentation of play

(even

> though not a log).
>
> This was supplemented with testimony that attested to the specific
> gaming involved as having an expected payback of no greater than
90%,
> and quite likely less than 80% -- with the consequence that it was
> next to statistically impossible that the gambler might have come
away
> from any year a winner.
>
> Further, a statement of cashflow accounting for the taxpayer was
> submitted to further establish that there was evidence of a steady
> outflow related to the gambling activity.
>
> ------
>
> I'll agree that there may be some room that as a consequence of

this

> case an examiner might be willing to accept receipts of cash

draws

as
> potential evidence of losses, in absence of the desired
> contemporaneous diary.
>
> However, my real expectation is that in absence of authoritative
> documentation that your gaming had a sharply negative expectation
> comparable to the taxpayer in this case (and I wouldn't expect a
> presumption that all machine gaming has lousy odds) an examiner
would
> find that documentation insufficient.
>
> If called into an examination, I view the prospects of a gambler

who

> is prepared merely with a set of win/loss statements to be

meager,

at
> best.
>
> Concerning a diary, there's no question that it's fraught with the
> potential of fraudulent preparation. That's true of any number of
> accounting documents that are relied upon to substantiate tax
returns.
>
> An analogy of a casino diary to W-2 wage reporting is specious. A
> comparison of W-2G reporting and W-2 submission by employers has
some
> validity, however. It's to be noted that if you wish to deduct
> employee expenses against reporting wages (outside of those
reimbursed
> by the employer), it's expected that you'll maintain a similar
> contemporaneous diary to substantiate those expenses.
>
> I speak here merely as an accountant/financial analyst who doesn't
> prepare tax returns professionally. It would be interesting to

see

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kcace1024" <cy4873@...> wrote:

> insight from someone such as Marissa Chien, EA.
>
> - Harry
>

Grandma,

Those who do not want to use a card can pay the extra tax. The
stupidity tax of playing negative EV games and not using a card is
just a little higher. 99.999% of players will have a loss and do not
need to let someone use their card unless they want to donate their
comps. Why would you play on someone else's card any way. I guess I
am missing something here.

Chris

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "gamblinggrandma"
<gamblinggrandma@...> wrote:

Well, if the federal governemnt wants win/loss statements from
casinos than lets all go get some players that never use cards (and
there are many) and just let them use one of our cards. I bet we

all

would end up with losing years. That is basically what is wrong

with

that theory. Anyone can use someone elses card. Not to mention -
the one major factor: NO ONE IS REQUIRED TO HAVE A CASINO PLAYERS
CARD. Not the govt or the casino makes it a requirement for the
purpose of gambling.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@>
wrote:
>
> kcace1024 wrote:
> > Harry,
> > I usually agree with your logic, but not this time. I think

you

> > underestimate the power of precedent that attaches to a case

like

> > this. There is some real irony in the IRS's statement that "we
can't
> > just take your word" because what is a gambling diary, but your
word
> > on paper. A win/loss statement has much more probitive value
because
> > it is from another party. Why aren't you allowed to keep a

diary

of
> > your wages instead of using a W-2? Why are self-employed

audited

> > more than wage earners because the IRS knows that most people
fudge
> > their diaries. Some even keep a second set of books.
> >
> > The IGT consultant has now established in court the obvious

fact

that
> > anyone who plays negative games on a regular basis will not

make

a
> > profit. The burden of proof has now been shifted to the IRS to
> > explain how someone can make a lot of money playing slots on a
> > regular basis.
> >
> > The IRS now knows it will be hard to stick it to a gambler just
> > because he does not have perfect records including the

worthless

> > gambling diary.
>
>
> The tax court decision
> http://www.ustaxcourt.gov/InOpHistoric/GAGLIARDI.TCM.WPD.pdf
> notes at the outset that the key question is, "Whether petitioner
> substantiated the amounts of his claimed gambling losses".
>
> It's necessary to weigh what the judges relied upon in finding in
> favor of the taxpayer to determine whether the decision applies
> generally to all gamblers, or only those who share very specific
> attributes with the gambler in this case.
>
> Ultimately, here is what the case cites as the necessary loss
> substantiation that satisfied the judges:
>
> (Note: "respondent" refers to the IRS; included in this statement

is

> that the IRS had accepted the submitted documentation as
establishing
> a portion of the claimed losses, but not all):
>
> "The voluminous contemporaneous and other documentary
> evidence, the corroborating testimonial evidence of an eyewitness
> to petitioner's gambling and daily activities during the years in
> issue and of petitioner's return preparer, and the testimonial
> evidence of two experts in addition to petitioner's testimony
> substantiate and establish that petitioner incurred the
> disallowed gambling losses."
>
> "We conclude that petitioner substantiated the amount of
> disallowed gambling deductions in issue (i.e., in excess of the
> amount respondent conceded--see supra pp. 16-17). Accordingly,
> we do not sustain respondent's disallowance of the gambling loss
> deductions Mr. Gagliardi claimed for 1999, 2000, and 2001. See
> also Jackson v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo. 2007-373 ("At trial,
> respondent conceded that petitioner had presented sufficient
> documentation to substantiate $127,165 in gambling losses"; "This
> documentation consisted of casino ATM receipts, canceled checks
> made payable to casinos, carbon copies of checks made payable to
> casinos, and credit card statements stating that cash was
> advanced at the casinos.")."
>
>
> It's interesting to note that casino-sourced win/loss statements
were
> not one of the documents submitted to substantiate losses.
>
> Instead, there was a steady record of receipts documenting the
source
> of gambling funds. That, at least in part, satisfied the court's
> thirst for some type of contemporaneous documentation of play

(even

> though not a log).
>
> This was supplemented with testimony that attested to the specific
> gaming involved as having an expected payback of no greater than
90%,
> and quite likely less than 80% -- with the consequence that it was
> next to statistically impossible that the gambler might have come
away
> from any year a winner.
>
> Further, a statement of cashflow accounting for the taxpayer was
> submitted to further establish that there was evidence of a steady
> outflow related to the gambling activity.
>
> ------
>
> I'll agree that there may be some room that as a consequence of

this

> case an examiner might be willing to accept receipts of cash

draws

as
> potential evidence of losses, in absence of the desired
> contemporaneous diary.
>
> However, my real expectation is that in absence of authoritative
> documentation that your gaming had a sharply negative expectation
> comparable to the taxpayer in this case (and I wouldn't expect a
> presumption that all machine gaming has lousy odds) an examiner
would
> find that documentation insufficient.
>
> If called into an examination, I view the prospects of a gambler

who

> is prepared merely with a set of win/loss statements to be

meager,

at
> best.
>
> Concerning a diary, there's no question that it's fraught with the
> potential of fraudulent preparation. That's true of any number of
> accounting documents that are relied upon to substantiate tax
returns.
>
> An analogy of a casino diary to W-2 wage reporting is specious. A
> comparison of W-2G reporting and W-2 submission by employers has
some
> validity, however. It's to be noted that if you wish to deduct
> employee expenses against reporting wages (outside of those
reimbursed
> by the employer), it's expected that you'll maintain a similar
> contemporaneous diary to substantiate those expenses.
>
> I speak here merely as an accountant/financial analyst who doesn't
> prepare tax returns professionally. It would be interesting to

see

···

> insight from someone such as Marissa Chien, EA.
>
> - Harry
>

Good luck with that argument.

P.S. The IRS wants to see a diary, if you are claiming losses against
your W2G's and 1099's.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kcace1024" <cy4873@...> wrote:

I found it very strange that win/loss stements were not mentioned in
this case. I see a win/loss statement as much better than any of the
other evidence of loss presented in this case.

There is somthing we all might be missing here. The IRS, and most in this group, know that regular slots cannot be beaten over the long pull (or should I now say button push?) but they, and many of us, know that video poker can be beat. I have never had problems with my taxes to date, giving all the info to my accountant to prepare my return. There are still some gray areas (i.e, tourney prize money under $600 -is that reported as a 1099 or as part of overall gambling winnings -I leave that to my accountant just give him all the data, slot club cash is it casino promo expense that is non taxeable or is it income?) that may differ with different tax preparers and even the IRS, but please keep in mine that there is quite a difference between a video poker knowledgeable player and a person who plays the slots to the point of an empty wallet daily. May be this was a factor in the decision?

kcace1024 <cy4873@hotmail.com> wrote: Grandma,

Those who do not want to use a card can pay the extra tax. The
stupidity tax of playing negative EV games and not using a card is
just a little higher. 99.999% of players will have a loss and do not
need to let someone use their card unless they want to donate their
comps. Why would you play on someone else's card any way. I guess I
am missing something here.

Chris

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "gamblinggrandma"
<gamblinggrandma@...> wrote:

Well, if the federal governemnt wants win/loss statements from
casinos than lets all go get some players that never use cards (and
there are many) and just let them use one of our cards. I bet we

all

would end up with losing years. That is basically what is wrong

with

that theory. Anyone can use someone elses card. Not to mention -
the one major factor: NO ONE IS REQUIRED TO HAVE A CASINO PLAYERS
CARD. Not the govt or the casino makes it a requirement for the
purpose of gambling.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@>
wrote:
>
> kcace1024 wrote:
> > Harry,
> > I usually agree with your logic, but not this time. I think

you

> > underestimate the power of precedent that attaches to a case

like

> > this. There is some real irony in the IRS's statement that "we
can't
> > just take your word" because what is a gambling diary, but your
word
> > on paper. A win/loss statement has much more probitive value
because
> > it is from another party. Why aren't you allowed to keep a

diary

of
> > your wages instead of using a W-2? Why are self-employed

audited

> > more than wage earners because the IRS knows that most people
fudge
> > their diaries. Some even keep a second set of books.
> >
> > The IGT consultant has now established in court the obvious

fact

that
> > anyone who plays negative games on a regular basis will not

make

a
> > profit. The burden of proof has now been shifted to the IRS to
> > explain how someone can make a lot of money playing slots on a
> > regular basis.
> >
> > The IRS now knows it will be hard to stick it to a gambler just
> > because he does not have perfect records including the

worthless

> > gambling diary.
>
>
> The tax court decision
> http://www.ustaxcourt.gov/InOpHistoric/GAGLIARDI.TCM.WPD.pdf
> notes at the outset that the key question is, "Whether petitioner
> substantiated the amounts of his claimed gambling losses".
>
> It's necessary to weigh what the judges relied upon in finding in
> favor of the taxpayer to determine whether the decision applies
> generally to all gamblers, or only those who share very specific
> attributes with the gambler in this case.
>
> Ultimately, here is what the case cites as the necessary loss
> substantiation that satisfied the judges:
>
> (Note: "respondent" refers to the IRS; included in this statement

is

> that the IRS had accepted the submitted documentation as
establishing
> a portion of the claimed losses, but not all):
>
> "The voluminous contemporaneous and other documentary
> evidence, the corroborating testimonial evidence of an eyewitness
> to petitioner's gambling and daily activities during the years in
> issue and of petitioner's return preparer, and the testimonial
> evidence of two experts in addition to petitioner's testimony
> substantiate and establish that petitioner incurred the
> disallowed gambling losses."
>
> "We conclude that petitioner substantiated the amount of
> disallowed gambling deductions in issue (i.e., in excess of the
> amount respondent conceded--see supra pp. 16-17). Accordingly,
> we do not sustain respondent's disallowance of the gambling loss
> deductions Mr. Gagliardi claimed for 1999, 2000, and 2001. See
> also Jackson v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo. 2007-373 ("At trial,
> respondent conceded that petitioner had presented sufficient
> documentation to substantiate $127,165 in gambling losses"; "This
> documentation consisted of casino ATM receipts, canceled checks
> made payable to casinos, carbon copies of checks made payable to
> casinos, and credit card statements stating that cash was
> advanced at the casinos.")."
>
>
> It's interesting to note that casino-sourced win/loss statements
were
> not one of the documents submitted to substantiate losses.
>
> Instead, there was a steady record of receipts documenting the
source
> of gambling funds. That, at least in part, satisfied the court's
> thirst for some type of contemporaneous documentation of play

(even

> though not a log).
>
> This was supplemented with testimony that attested to the specific
> gaming involved as having an expected payback of no greater than
90%,
> and quite likely less than 80% -- with the consequence that it was
> next to statistically impossible that the gambler might have come
away
> from any year a winner.
>
> Further, a statement of cashflow accounting for the taxpayer was
> submitted to further establish that there was evidence of a steady
> outflow related to the gambling activity.
>
> ------
>
> I'll agree that there may be some room that as a consequence of

this

> case an examiner might be willing to accept receipts of cash

draws

as
> potential evidence of losses, in absence of the desired
> contemporaneous diary.
>
> However, my real expectation is that in absence of authoritative
> documentation that your gaming had a sharply negative expectation
> comparable to the taxpayer in this case (and I wouldn't expect a
> presumption that all machine gaming has lousy odds) an examiner
would
> find that documentation insufficient.
>
> If called into an examination, I view the prospects of a gambler

who

> is prepared merely with a set of win/loss statements to be

meager,

at
> best.
>
> Concerning a diary, there's no question that it's fraught with the
> potential of fraudulent preparation. That's true of any number of
> accounting documents that are relied upon to substantiate tax
returns.
>
> An analogy of a casino diary to W-2 wage reporting is specious. A
> comparison of W-2G reporting and W-2 submission by employers has
some
> validity, however. It's to be noted that if you wish to deduct
> employee expenses against reporting wages (outside of those
reimbursed
> by the employer), it's expected that you'll maintain a similar
> contemporaneous diary to substantiate those expenses.
>
> I speak here merely as an accountant/financial analyst who doesn't
> prepare tax returns professionally. It would be interesting to

see

···

> insight from someone such as Marissa Chien, EA.
>
> - Harry
>

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Many couples play on each other's cards. Even family members do it.
Friedns do it when they are visiting and not interested in joining a
slot card. I think its entirely up to an individual if they get a
card and use it. They may not consider it stupid but prefers the
casino does not have their personal information. I heard a guy last
year at the Hilton playing $5 machines, tell the slot ambassador that
he did not want his wife to know he was gambling or where and
therefore was not interested in getting a card. he was playing $5
JOB on a muti-denom machine. He did okay too - hit several four of a
kinds, but I just thought how he would explain a W2G to his wife if
he got a royal. :slight_smile:

Grandma,

Those who do not want to use a card can pay the extra tax. The
stupidity tax of playing negative EV games and not using a card is
just a little higher. 99.999% of players will have a loss and do

not

need to let someone use their card unless they want to donate their
comps. Why would you play on someone else's card any way. I guess

I

am missing something here.

Chris

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "gamblinggrandma"
<gamblinggrandma@> wrote:
>
> Well, if the federal governemnt wants win/loss statements from
> casinos than lets all go get some players that never use cards

(and

> there are many) and just let them use one of our cards. I bet we
all
> would end up with losing years. That is basically what is wrong
with
> that theory. Anyone can use someone elses card. Not to mention -

> the one major factor: NO ONE IS REQUIRED TO HAVE A CASINO

PLAYERS

> CARD. Not the govt or the casino makes it a requirement for the
> purpose of gambling.
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@>
> wrote:
> >
> > kcace1024 wrote:
> > > Harry,
> > > I usually agree with your logic, but not this time. I think
you
> > > underestimate the power of precedent that attaches to a case
like
> > > this. There is some real irony in the IRS's statement

that "we

> can't
> > > just take your word" because what is a gambling diary, but

your

> word
> > > on paper. A win/loss statement has much more probitive value
> because
> > > it is from another party. Why aren't you allowed to keep a
diary
> of
> > > your wages instead of using a W-2? Why are self-employed
audited
> > > more than wage earners because the IRS knows that most people
> fudge
> > > their diaries. Some even keep a second set of books.
> > >
> > > The IGT consultant has now established in court the obvious
fact
> that
> > > anyone who plays negative games on a regular basis will not
make
> a
> > > profit. The burden of proof has now been shifted to the IRS

to

> > > explain how someone can make a lot of money playing slots on

a

> > > regular basis.
> > >
> > > The IRS now knows it will be hard to stick it to a gambler

just

> > > because he does not have perfect records including the
worthless
> > > gambling diary.
> >
> >
> > The tax court decision
> > http://www.ustaxcourt.gov/InOpHistoric/GAGLIARDI.TCM.WPD.pdf
> > notes at the outset that the key question is, "Whether

petitioner

> > substantiated the amounts of his claimed gambling losses".
> >
> > It's necessary to weigh what the judges relied upon in finding

in

> > favor of the taxpayer to determine whether the decision applies
> > generally to all gamblers, or only those who share very specific
> > attributes with the gambler in this case.
> >
> > Ultimately, here is what the case cites as the necessary loss
> > substantiation that satisfied the judges:
> >
> > (Note: "respondent" refers to the IRS; included in this

statement

is
> > that the IRS had accepted the submitted documentation as
> establishing
> > a portion of the claimed losses, but not all):
> >
> > "The voluminous contemporaneous and other documentary
> > evidence, the corroborating testimonial evidence of an

eyewitness

> > to petitioner's gambling and daily activities during the years

in

> > issue and of petitioner's return preparer, and the testimonial
> > evidence of two experts in addition to petitioner's testimony
> > substantiate and establish that petitioner incurred the
> > disallowed gambling losses."
> >
> > "We conclude that petitioner substantiated the amount of
> > disallowed gambling deductions in issue (i.e., in excess of the
> > amount respondent conceded--see supra pp. 16-17). Accordingly,
> > we do not sustain respondent's disallowance of the gambling loss
> > deductions Mr. Gagliardi claimed for 1999, 2000, and 2001. See
> > also Jackson v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo. 2007-373 ("At trial,
> > respondent conceded that petitioner had presented sufficient
> > documentation to substantiate $127,165 in gambling

losses"; "This

> > documentation consisted of casino ATM receipts, canceled checks
> > made payable to casinos, carbon copies of checks made payable to
> > casinos, and credit card statements stating that cash was
> > advanced at the casinos.")."
> >
> >
> > It's interesting to note that casino-sourced win/loss

statements

> were
> > not one of the documents submitted to substantiate losses.
> >
> > Instead, there was a steady record of receipts documenting the
> source
> > of gambling funds. That, at least in part, satisfied the

court's

> > thirst for some type of contemporaneous documentation of play
(even
> > though not a log).
> >
> > This was supplemented with testimony that attested to the

specific

> > gaming involved as having an expected payback of no greater

than

> 90%,
> > and quite likely less than 80% -- with the consequence that it

was

> > next to statistically impossible that the gambler might have

come

> away
> > from any year a winner.
> >
> > Further, a statement of cashflow accounting for the taxpayer was
> > submitted to further establish that there was evidence of a

steady

> > outflow related to the gambling activity.
> >
> > ------
> >
> > I'll agree that there may be some room that as a consequence of
this
> > case an examiner might be willing to accept receipts of cash
draws
> as
> > potential evidence of losses, in absence of the desired
> > contemporaneous diary.
> >
> > However, my real expectation is that in absence of authoritative
> > documentation that your gaming had a sharply negative

expectation

> > comparable to the taxpayer in this case (and I wouldn't expect a
> > presumption that all machine gaming has lousy odds) an examiner
> would
> > find that documentation insufficient.
> >
> > If called into an examination, I view the prospects of a

gambler

who
> > is prepared merely with a set of win/loss statements to be
meager,
> at
> > best.
> >
> > Concerning a diary, there's no question that it's fraught with

the

> > potential of fraudulent preparation. That's true of any number

of

> > accounting documents that are relied upon to substantiate tax
> returns.
> >
> > An analogy of a casino diary to W-2 wage reporting is

specious. A

> > comparison of W-2G reporting and W-2 submission by employers

has

> some
> > validity, however. It's to be noted that if you wish to deduct
> > employee expenses against reporting wages (outside of those
> reimbursed
> > by the employer), it's expected that you'll maintain a similar
> > contemporaneous diary to substantiate those expenses.
> >
> > I speak here merely as an accountant/financial analyst who

doesn't

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kcace1024" <cy4873@...> wrote:

> > prepare tax returns professionally. It would be interesting to
see
> > insight from someone such as Marissa Chien, EA.
> >
> > - Harry
> >
>