If someone cares to put together an answer for
the following question we'll add it to the FAQ:
"What data is needed to confirm that a video poker
machine is gaffed?"
vpFae
vpFREE DataBase Coordinator
vpFae@Cox,net
Gaffed Games
The first thing to do is read the small print on the machine. There are some IGT and Bally machines that do not say the game is based on one 52 card deck. Instead they say the cards displayed are for entertainment purposes only. I ran across these at a casino in Alabama and they are definitely not random.
vpFae <vpFae@Cox.net> wrote: If someone cares to put together an answer for
the following question we'll add it to the FAQ:
"What data is needed to confirm that a video poker
machine is gaffed?"
vpFae
vpFREE DataBase Coordinator
vpFae@Cox,net
···
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What is vpFREE's definition of "gaffed?"
···
On 11/8/07, vpFae <vpFae@cox.net> wrote:
If someone cares to put together an answer for
the following question we'll add it to the FAQ:"What data is needed to confirm that a video poker
machine is gaffed?"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
See the Glossary:
http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Gloss.htm#Gaff
"A video poker machine is "gaffed" if its pay table isn't
the sole determinant of its pay back."
···
On 8 Nov 2007 at 13:11, Luke Fuller wrote:
What is vpFREE's definition of "gaffed?"
A game that is designed to use another paradigm than each card having an equal chance to play, such as Class II machines found in Alabama ARE NOT "GAFFED"!!!!!
A gaffed machine has been modified to cheat and not perform as originally designed. Class II machines and a very few VLT's are designed to work on Bingo or scratch-off lottery tickets, respectively.
Too many people think that these machines are not fair. They ARE fair, they just work more like slot machines than VP machines.
In addition, I am offended by vpFae's even posing the question since there is NO evidence that any machine in any US casino has ever been gaffed. In fact, the only known case was years ago when a route operator gaffed the machines in taverns on their route. AND THEY WERE CAUGHT.
Bill
···
At 12:35 PM 11/8/2007, you wrote:
The first thing to do is read the small print on the machine. There are some IGT and Bally machines that do not say the game is based on one 52 card deck. Instead they say the cards displayed are for entertainment purposes only. I ran across these at a casino in Alabama and they are definitely not random.
vpFae <vpFae@Cox.net> wrote: If someone cares to put together an answer for
the following question we'll add it to the FAQ:"What data is needed to confirm that a video poker
machine is gaffed?"vpFae
vpFREE DataBase Coordinator
vpFae@Cox,net
Although there is no dictionary definition to match this use of gaffe, the connotation has always been cheating. Your definition either does not match the connotation or intentionally gives a negative connotation to Class II and NY and Wash VLT's.
Those machines are easily recognizable and do not hide their methodology. (True, they don't advertise them either but so what? If you invest in a stock without doing research you are a fool. If you play a casino game without researching what you are playing you are also a fool.)
May I suggest you modify your definition.
Thanks,
B
···
At 04:43 PM 11/8/2007, you wrote:
On 8 Nov 2007 at 13:11, Luke Fuller wrote:
> What is vpFREE's definition of "gaffed?"
See the Glossary:
http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Gloss.htm#Gaff
"A video poker machine is "gaffed" if its pay table isn't
the sole determinant of its pay back."vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
What is Mr. Coleman's agenda?
Although there is no dictionary definition to match this use of
gaffe, the connotation has always been cheating. Your definition
either does not match the connotation or intentionally gives a
negative connotation to Class II and NY and Wash VLT's.Those machines are easily recognizable and do not hide their
methodology. (True, they don't advertise them either but so what? If
you invest in a stock without doing research you are a fool. If you
play a casino game without researching what you are playing you are
also a fool.)May I suggest you modify your definition.
Thanks,
B
>
> > What is vpFREE's definition of "gaffed?"
>
>See the Glossary:
>
>http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Gloss.htm#Gaff
>
>"A video poker machine is "gaffed" if its pay table isn't
>the sole determinant of its pay back."
>
>
>vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:
At 04:43 PM 11/8/2007, you wrote:
>On 8 Nov 2007 at 13:11, Luke Fuller wrote:
That's an interesting definition, vpFae.
Dictionary.com says that gaffed means "to defraud, to
swindle, or to rig or fix in order to cheat."
So, now gaffed means different things to different people
in this group, just like "full pay" does!
I suggest that the vpFREE glossary should read, "A video
poker machine is 'gaffed' if it has been rigged in order to
defraud, swindle, or cheat the player."
To the original question posted ("What data is needed
to confirm that a video poker machine is gaffed?"), I find it
hard to believe that this question is 'frequently' asked.
I suggest that it is not necessary for this question to be
included in the vpFREE FAQ in the first place. So, an
answer is also unnecessary.
···
On 11/8/07, vpFae <vpFae@cox.net> wrote:
On 8 Nov 2007 at 13:11, Luke Fuller wrote:
> What is vpFREE's definition of "gaffed?"See the Glossary:
http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Gloss.htm#Gaff"A video poker machine is "gaffed" if its pay table isn't
the sole determinant of its pay back."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have no agenda except truth. There are way too many people who believe every casino is out to cheat them just like there are so many operators who believe every customer is a cheat. I work for a company with many gaming customers (we do data visualizations) and I believe there is NO conflict between my being an advantage player and working in the industry.
We both need each other. Most operators design loyalty programs and slot floors that prevent them from maximizing incomes because they believe things that aren't true about their customers. By the same token too many people (include many on this board) are absolutely convinced that they are playing gaffed games or that class II games are somehow rigged.
My agenda, if any, is that there is a symbiotic, not parasitic relationship between well-run casinos and their customers. I dislike casinos that try to squeeze every customer and I dislike "pros" who only play 101.5% and above progressives. To my mind both are parasites and there is no room for them in decent society.
My opinion. Yours might differ. But over the years I have often stated my belief that everyone can benefit from a well-designed customer loyalty program and a casino that understands revenue management and customer relations.
B
···
At 05:26 PM 11/8/2007, you wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:
>What is Mr. Coleman's agenda?
> Although there is no dictionary definition to match this use of
> gaffe, the connotation has always been cheating. Your definition
> either does not match the connotation or intentionally gives a
> negative connotation to Class II and NY and Wash VLT's.
>
> Those machines are easily recognizable and do not hide their
> methodology. (True, they don't advertise them either but so what? If
> you invest in a stock without doing research you are a fool. If you
> play a casino game without researching what you are playing you are
> also a fool.)
>
> May I suggest you modify your definition.
>
> Thanks,
>
> B
>
> At 04:43 PM 11/8/2007, you wrote:
> >On 8 Nov 2007 at 13:11, Luke Fuller wrote:
> >
> > > What is vpFREE's definition of "gaffed?"
> >
> >See the Glossary:
> >
> >http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Gloss.htm#Gaff
> >
> >"A video poker machine is "gaffed" if its pay table isn't
> >the sole determinant of its pay back."
> >
> >vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
>vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
The intention here is to establish the extensive, meticulous data
needed to document gaffing. These guidelines will be available to
emphasize that limited anecdotal evidence and/or selective memory
aren't persuasive in the periodic allegations of possible cheating
that are posted on vpFREE.
I've changed the Glossary entry for "Gaffed" to:
http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Gloss.htm#Gaff
"A video poker machine is "gaffed" if it has been
rigged to cheat."
vpFae
vpFREE DataBase Coordinator
vpFae@Cox.net
···
On 8 Nov 2007 at 16:49, Bill Coleman wrote:
In addition, I am offended by vpFae's even posing the question since
there is NO evidence that any machine in any US casino has ever been
gaffed. In fact, the only known case was years ago when a route
operator gaffed the machines in taverns on their route. AND THEY
WERE CAUGHT.
Thanks for changing the definition of "Gaffed" in the
vpFREE glossary, vpFae.
"Gaffed: A video poker machine is 'gaffed' if it has been
rigged to cheat."
···
On 11/8/07, Curtis Rich <lgtvegas@gmail.com> wrote:
That's an interesting definition, vpFae.
Dictionary.com <http://dictionary.com/> says that gaffed means
"to defraud, to
swindle, or to rig or fix in order to cheat."So, now gaffed means different things to different people
in this group, just like "full pay" does!I suggest that the vpFREE glossary should read, "A video
poker machine is 'gaffed' if it has been rigged in order to
defraud, swindle, or cheat the player."To the original question posted ("What data is needed
to confirm that a video poker machine is gaffed?"), I find it
hard to believe that this question is 'frequently' asked.
I suggest that it is not necessary for this question to be
included in the vpFREE FAQ in the first place. So, an
answer is also unnecessary.On 11/8/07, vpFae <vpFae@cox.net> wrote:
> On 8 Nov 2007 at 13:11, Luke Fuller wrote:
> > What is vpFREE's definition of "gaffed?"
>
> See the Glossary:
> http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Gloss.htm#Gaff
>
> "A video poker machine is "gaffed" if its pay table isn't
> the sole determinant of its pay back."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We're always looking for corrections and suggestions
for FAQ and Glossary entries.
vpFae
vpFREE DataBase Coordinator
vpFae@Cox.net
···
On 8 Nov 2007 at 21:54, Curtis Rich wrote:
Thanks for changing the definition of "Gaffed" in the
vpFREE glossary, vpFae.
Bill Coleman wrote:
there is NO evidence that any machine in any US casino has ever been
gaffed.
In 1985, it was common knowledge that many, if not all, machines
produced by "Games of Nevada" were gaffed.
Bill Coleman wrote:
My agenda, if any, is that there is a symbiotic, not parasitic
relationship between well-run casinos and their customers. I dislike
casinos that try to squeeze every customer and I dislike "pros" who
only play 101.5% and above progressives. To my mind both are
parasites and there is no room for them in decent society.
Unless you include the factor of the casino getting paid to provide
the pleasure of entertainment, I don't see how there's anything but a
purely competitive aspect between a casino and its customers. Isn't
gambling, strictly speaking, a zero sum game, so that "parasitic" is
inseparable from "smart?"
Bill Coleman wrote:
>My agenda, if any, is that there is a symbiotic, not parasitic
>relationship between well-run casinos and their customers. I dislike
>casinos that try to squeeze every customer and I dislike "pros" who
>only play 101.5% and above progressives. To my mind both are
>parasites and there is no room for them in decent society.
Tom Robertson wrote:
Unless you include the factor of the casino getting paid to provide
the pleasure of entertainment, I don't see how there's anything but a
purely competitive aspect between a casino and its customers. Isn't
gambling, strictly speaking, a zero sum game, so that "parasitic" is
inseparable from "smart?"
I may be speaking tangentially to Bill's and Tom's posts, but I'll
offer up that I see a casino "parasite" as one who, like an aphid,
would willingly suck the life blood out of a casino and give nothing
whatsoever of benefit in return. Mind you, I've come across many a
pro who I'd characterize as particularly agreeable parasites 
A smart player, by contrast, may simply be an intelligent consumer
looking to get more bang for their buck, and in any case has more
moderate appetite when it comes to demands on the casino. They also
genuinely strive to be regarded as a presence that the casino actively
welcomes.
A casino that indiscriminately treats both these player segments as
parasites does themselves a considerable disfavor. That behavior
spills over as discouragement to a decent share of the strongly
profitable "bread and butter" contingent, who have little use for a
negative environment.
- Harry
I have no agenda except truth. There are way too many people who
believe every casino is out to cheat them just like there are so
many
operators who believe every customer is a cheat. I work for a
company
with many gaming customers (we do data visualizations) and I
believe
there is NO conflict between my being an advantage player and
working
in the industry.
We both need each other. Most operators design loyalty programs
and
slot floors that prevent them from maximizing incomes because they
believe things that aren't true about their customers. By the same
token too many people (include many on this board) are absolutely
convinced that they are playing gaffed games or that class II
games
are somehow rigged.
My agenda, if any, is that there is a symbiotic, not parasitic
relationship between well-run casinos and their customers. I
dislike
casinos that try to squeeze every customer and I dislike "pros"
who
only play 101.5% and above progressives. To my mind both are
parasites and there is no room for them in decent society.My opinion. Yours might differ. But over the years I have often
stated my belief that everyone can benefit from a well-designed
customer loyalty program and a casino that understands revenue
management and customer relations.B
You stated above that you are an advantage player. You also stated
that you dislike pros who only play 101.5% or higher. So you are
not a parasit because you play at 101.4% or less? I seek the truth
too and the truth is you are an advantage player who dislikes other
advantage players. I know the type.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:
If the lead programmer gets executed mob style before testifying, the
machines were probably gaffed. RIP Larry Volk.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFae" <vpFae@...> wrote:
If someone cares to put together an answer for
the following question we'll add it to the FAQ:"What data is needed to confirm that a video poker
machine is gaffed?"vpFae
vpFREE DataBase Coordinator
vpFae@Cox,net
I would suggest something along the lines of "if observed outcomes
differ from expected outcomes by over 6 standard deviations" The
number of standard deviations depends upon one's level of trust. See
the Wizard of Odds' examination of a recent online poker scandal.
http://wizardofodds.com/software/absolutepoker.html
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:
···
If the lead programmer gets executed mob style before testifying, the
machines were probably gaffed. RIP Larry Volk.--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFae" <vpFae@> wrote:
>
> If someone cares to put together an answer for
> the following question we'll add it to the FAQ:
>
> "What data is needed to confirm that a video poker
> machine is gaffed?"
>
> vpFae
> vpFREE DataBase Coordinator
> vpFae@Cox,net
>
Six Sigma is hard to do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Sigma
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpbob_2000" <vpbob1@...> wrote:
I would suggest something along the lines of "if observed outcomes
differ from expected outcomes by over 6 standard deviations" The
number of standard deviations depends upon one's level of trust. See
the Wizard of Odds' examination of a recent online poker scandal.http://wizardofodds.com/software/absolutepoker.html
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
>
> If the lead programmer gets executed mob style before testifying, the
> machines were probably gaffed. RIP Larry Volk.
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFae" <vpFae@> wrote:
> >
> > If someone cares to put together an answer for
> > the following question we'll add it to the FAQ:
> >
> > "What data is needed to confirm that a video poker
> > machine is gaffed?"
> >
> > vpFae
> > vpFREE DataBase Coordinator
> > vpFae@Cox,net
> >
>
Bravo, Harry. The clarity you show is why I've always respected you. And it's perfectly on point.
B
···
At 05:36 AM 11/9/2007, you wrote:
Bill Coleman wrote:
> >My agenda, if any, is that there is a symbiotic, not parasitic
> >relationship between well-run casinos and their customers. I dislike
> >casinos that try to squeeze every customer and I dislike "pros" who
> >only play 101.5% and above progressives. To my mind both are
> >parasites and there is no room for them in decent society.Tom Robertson wrote:
> Unless you include the factor of the casino getting paid to provide
> the pleasure of entertainment, I don't see how there's anything but a
> purely competitive aspect between a casino and its customers. Isn't
> gambling, strictly speaking, a zero sum game, so that "parasitic" is
> inseparable from "smart?"I may be speaking tangentially to Bill's and Tom's posts, but I'll
offer up that I see a casino "parasite" as one who, like an aphid,
would willingly suck the life blood out of a casino and give nothing
whatsoever of benefit in return. Mind you, I've come across many a
pro who I'd characterize as particularly agreeable parasitesA smart player, by contrast, may simply be an intelligent consumer
looking to get more bang for their buck, and in any case has more
moderate appetite when it comes to demands on the casino. They also
genuinely strive to be regarded as a presence that the casino actively
welcomes.A casino that indiscriminately treats both these player segments as
parasites does themselves a considerable disfavor. That behavior
spills over as discouragement to a decent share of the strongly
profitable "bread and butter" contingent, who have little use for a
negative environment.- Harry
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links