(Fwd) Re: Wheel Poker

[vpFREE3]

Private email to vpFREE Administrator:

···

********************************

(cross posted on las vegas advisor forums)

At the Rampart:

Some of the basic paytables are:
Three or five-play play bonus poker (7/5), double bonus (9/6/5), DDB
(9/5), DW (15/9/4/4/3/2/1) and others (no JoB) at the quarter level.
(5c and 10c are shorter pay yet)

Five coin is normal bet, BUT if you pay the sixth coin (similar to
Super times pay), and get a natural quad, you get a free spin of the
wheel for additional credits above the normal paytable. The wheel has
eleven positions: 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, 400, 500, 600, 800, 1000,
and 2000 credits.

I did get dealt quads playing three-play, and yes you get three spins
when that happens. The distribution of pays seems fairly uniform, but
my sample size was not large (maybe twenty quads). I never got the
2000, but did get the 1000 once, 800 twice, and each of the others
once or twice. So I did a quick Frugal Video Poker paytable tweak of
the 7/5 BP (98.01% w/o sixth coin) and found that if the average spin
bonus is 400, then the ER is around 97.5%, and if the bonus averages
450 the ER is 99.63%. My method was to add the average bonus to the
quad payouts in FVP, analyze, and then scale the resulting ER by
5/6ths to account for the extra coin.

I am sure that this is never going to approach positive pay, but it
is a lot of fun to play. Just like in super times pay, the extra coin
can suck your money down quickly if the quads aren't there, but it
was a nice rush to get the dealt quad and the three spins.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@...> wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I checked it out today briefly, but didn't play. There are 11 bonus
levels, expressed in coins won: 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, 400, 500,
600, 800, 1000, and 2000.

My guess is the bonus level odds are inversly proportional to the
size of the bonus. That is, a 100 coin bonus is 20 times more likely
than a 2000 coin bonus.

One thing still unclear. What if you are playing 5 play and get a
dealt quad. Does that mean you get 5 bonuses? I doubt it, because
the "help" screens did not mention that possibility.

Also, the bonus is apparently the same regardless of the type of
quad. Quad Aces w/kicker has the same bonus as Quad 9s. So my gut
feel is its best to "play the game with the highest frequency of
quads", even if it has a slightly lower return. Its a complex
tradeoff between maximizing return versus maximizing quads.

[tomflush1]

Variations of wheel poker have been around for at least 10 years. It was very popular at the Flamingo hilton, and harrahs after they removed all their full pay games. It may look like an even distribution 11-1 of the wheel, but clock it 1000 times and I think you may find the top spin at about 1/100.
regards...Tom

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "vpFREE Administrator" <vp_free@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@Yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 1:41 PM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [vpFREE] (Fwd) Re: Wheel Poker

Private email to vpFREE Administrator:

********************************

(cross posted on las vegas advisor forums)

At the Rampart:

Some of the basic paytables are:
Three or five-play play bonus poker (7/5), double bonus (9/6/5), DDB
(9/5), DW (15/9/4/4/3/2/1) and others (no JoB) at the quarter level.
(5c and 10c are shorter pay yet)

Five coin is normal bet, BUT if you pay the sixth coin (similar to
Super times pay), and get a natural quad, you get a free spin of the
wheel for additional credits above the normal paytable. The wheel has
eleven positions: 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, 400, 500, 600, 800, 1000,
and 2000 credits.

I did get dealt quads playing three-play, and yes you get three spins
when that happens. The distribution of pays seems fairly uniform, but
my sample size was not large (maybe twenty quads). I never got the
2000, but did get the 1000 once, 800 twice, and each of the others
once or twice. So I did a quick Frugal Video Poker paytable tweak of
the 7/5 BP (98.01% w/o sixth coin) and found that if the average spin
bonus is 400, then the ER is around 97.5%, and if the bonus averages
450 the ER is 99.63%. My method was to add the average bonus to the
quad payouts in FVP, analyze, and then scale the resulting ER by
5/6ths to account for the extra coin.

I am sure that this is never going to approach positive pay, but it
is a lot of fun to play. Just like in super times pay, the extra coin
can suck your money down quickly if the quads aren't there, but it
was a nice rush to get the dealt quad and the three spins.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@...> wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I checked it out today briefly, but didn't play. There are 11 bonus
levels, expressed in coins won: 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, 400, 500,
600, 800, 1000, and 2000.

My guess is the bonus level odds are inversly proportional to the
size of the bonus. That is, a 100 coin bonus is 20 times more likely
than a 2000 coin bonus.

One thing still unclear. What if you are playing 5 play and get a
dealt quad. Does that mean you get 5 bonuses? I doubt it, because
the "help" screens did not mention that possibility.

Also, the bonus is apparently the same regardless of the type of
quad. Quad Aces w/kicker has the same bonus as Quad 9s. So my gut
feel is its best to "play the game with the highest frequency of
quads", even if it has a slightly lower return. Its a complex
tradeoff between maximizing return versus maximizing quads.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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[brucem]

Variations of wheel poker have been around for at least 10 years.

It was

very popular at the Flamingo hilton, and harrahs after they removed

all

their full pay games. It may look like an even distribution 11-1 of

the

wheel, but clock it 1000 times and I think you may find the top

spin at

about 1/100.
regards...Tom

I wondered about those odds too. Earlier I speculated the frequency
of the each bonus may be inversely proportional to its size. That
is, the 100 coin bonus would occur 20 times for every 2000 coin
bonus, on average. Making this assumption, it is possible to
estimate the frequency of each bonus, how frequently the top bonus
occurs on average, and the average bonus coins. I came up with the
following:

The 2000 coin bonus occurs, on average, every 75.83 bonuses. All
bonuses are distributed as follows:
100 coins: Occurs 26.37% of the time
150 coins: 17.57%
200 coins: 13.18%
250 coins: 10.55%
300 coins: 8.80%
400 coins: 6.60%
500 coins: 5.27%
600 coins: 4.40%
800 coins: 3.30%
1000 coins: 2.64%
2000 coins: 1.32%

Keep in mind all the above is based on the initial assumption, so may
not be correct. If it is correct, the average bonus win is about 228
coins. Since the quad average is roughly 425 hands, you must
spend 425 quarters to win, on average, 228 quarters. Not good!

Someone posted their own experience playing, and it suggested the
odds aren't as heavily loaded at the low bonus levels as my figures
show. If true, it means the 228 coin "average" is too low, although
that play was a fairly small sample (about 20 quads).

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tomflush" <tomflush@...> wrote:

[A_C]

Now that I have my account straightened out I can respond directly --
yes it was about twenty spins so definitely not statistically
significant.

The point of my analysis which I am sure most of you already know
(and brumar_lv relates correctly) is that the spins could be
programmed into the 400's on average which "seems" generous but
actually isn't when you consider the quad being hit on average of 1
every 425 deals or so.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I wondered about those odds too. Earlier I speculated the

frequency

of the each bonus may be inversely proportional to its size. That
is, the 100 coin bonus would occur 20 times for every 2000 coin
bonus, on average. Making this assumption, it is possible to
estimate the frequency of each bonus, how frequently the top bonus
occurs on average, and the average bonus coins. I came up with the
following:

The 2000 coin bonus occurs, on average, every 75.83 bonuses. All
bonuses are distributed as follows:
100 coins: Occurs 26.37% of the time
150 coins: 17.57%
200 coins: 13.18%
250 coins: 10.55%
300 coins: 8.80%
400 coins: 6.60%
500 coins: 5.27%
600 coins: 4.40%
800 coins: 3.30%
1000 coins: 2.64%
2000 coins: 1.32%

Keep in mind all the above is based on the initial assumption, so

may

not be correct. If it is correct, the average bonus win is about

228

coins. Since the quad average is roughly 425 hands, you must
spend 425 quarters to win, on average, 228 quarters. Not good!

Someone posted their own experience playing, and it suggested the
odds aren't as heavily loaded at the low bonus levels as my figures
show. If true, it means the 228 coin "average" is too low,

although

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@...> wrote:

that play was a fairly small sample (about 20 quads).

[brucem]

The point of my analysis which I am sure most of you already know
(and brumar_lv relates correctly) is that the spins could be
programmed into the 400's on average which "seems" generous but
actually isn't when you consider the quad being hit on average of 1
every 425 deals or so.

  If it is correct, the average bonus win is about

228
> coins. Since the quad average is roughly 425 hands, you must
> spend 425 quarters to win, on average, 228 quarters. Not good!

Mea culpa! I went back over my calculation and it appears the quad
average is actually 350 coins, not 228 coins as stated in my post.
This is much closer to A@Cs estimate, and seems much more likely, but
still far from the 425 game average between quads.

So I guess the question is whether its possible to alter the optimum
strategy enough to bring down the 425 game average to 350, without
impacting the overall game return too badly. That seems unlikely.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "A&C" <cnacouple@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@> wrote:

[Harry_Porter]

brumar_lv wrote:

Keep in mind all the above is based on the initial assumption, so may
not be correct. If it is correct, the average bonus win is about 228
coins. Since the quad average is roughly 425 hands, you must
spend 425 quarters to win, on average, 228 quarters. Not good!

Someone posted their own experience playing, and it suggested the
odds aren't as heavily loaded at the low bonus levels as my figures
show. If true, it means the 228 coin "average" is too low, although
that play was a fairly small sample (about 20 quads).

Where the odds of a game can't be readily determined you can look for
a casino to offer a subpar return.

- H.

[A_C]

I definitely believe that! That brings up an interesting question --
is the distribution or average multiplier for STP stated anywhere on
the casino machines or is it also indeterminable? I got onto the
Action Gaming website STP simulator and in the help screen it says the
average multiplier is 4.05x over an average of 1 in 15 deals. Does
taht apply to casino games or just the simulator on their website? Is
there a similar statement in the help screen on the Wheel Poker? I
didn't think to look.

Al & Chris

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

Where the odds of a game can't be readily determined you can look for
a casino to offer a subpar return.

- H.

[brucem]

So I guess the question is whether its possible to alter the optimum
strategy enough to bring down the 425 game average to 350, without
impacting the overall game return too badly. That seems unlikely.

I feel like I'm beating this puppy to death! But anyway ... is it
realistic to increase the frequency of quads, yet minimize the drop in
return of the regular game?

For example, is there a way, using the latest software or manually, to
determine the increase in the quad frequency and the drop in return, by
(1) NOT holding dealt full houses and (2) always discarding one pair
when you are dealt two? Of course, the impact would vary from game to
game, but assume the game is DDBP where a 2 pair win is the same as a 1
pair win.

[rhanniken]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> So I guess the question is whether its possible to alter the

optimum

> strategy enough to bring down the 425 game average to 350,

without

> impacting the overall game return too badly. That seems unlikely.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I feel like I'm beating this puppy to death! But anyway ... is it
realistic to increase the frequency of quads, yet minimize the drop

in

return of the regular game?

For example, is there a way, using the latest software or manually,

to

determine the increase in the quad frequency and the drop in

return, by

(1) NOT holding dealt full houses and (2) always discarding one

pair

when you are dealt two? Of course, the impact would vary from game

to

game, but assume the game is DDBP where a 2 pair win is the same as

a 1

pair win.

Just set up Win Poker or other software so all the Quads pay 1000 and
run analysis. Take the resulting hand frequencies generated and plug
them back into the paytable of your choice. Multiply the new hand
frequencies by your paytable and add them all together, the sum is
the EV for your game with the more aggressive strategy.

Happy Holidays,
Raimo Hanniken

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@...> wrote:

[vpFae1]

The Help menu on an STP machine does say "the average
multiplier is 4.05x over an average of 1 in 15 deals" and
we didn't see any mention of frequency in the Help menu
on a Wheel Poker machine.

vpFae

···

On 23 Dec 2007 at 15:07, A&C wrote:

... is the distribution or average multiplier for STP stated anywhere on
the casino machines or is it also indeterminable? I got onto the
Action Gaming website STP simulator and in the help screen it says the
average multiplier is 4.05x over an average of 1 in 15 deals. Does
taht apply to casino games or just the simulator on their website? Is
there a similar statement in the help screen on the Wheel Poker?

[brucem]

Just set up Win Poker or other software so all the Quads pay 1000

and

run analysis. Take the resulting hand frequencies generated and

plug

them back into the paytable of your choice. Multiply the new hand
frequencies by your paytable and add them all together, the sum is
the EV for your game with the more aggressive strategy.

Happy Holidays,
Raimo Hanniken

Thanks for the suggestion.

Using Bonus Poker Delux which pays 98.4928%, I did the modifications
your suggested. This lowered the frequency of quads from 423.9 to
398.5, but the return dropped to 97.98122%. This did lower the quad
frequency, but not far enough because the average bonus, 350 coins,
is still well below 423.9.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rhanniken" <rhanniken@...> wrote: