vpFREE2 Forums

full pay vs short pay

edifess@hotmail.com wrote ....

Assuming one machine had a better paytable than another, I would of

course prefer it. But, it is tremendously overstated in the short term

what that extra percent or two gets you. And tourists are short term.

__ The extra percent or 2 gets you $5 or $10 an hour playing single line

__ quarters at a leisurely 400 hands per hour. Higher denom or
multiline

__ makes that number much, much higher.

__ Let's say you have two friends who want to wager on a coin flip.

__ Friend A will pay you $1 when you are correct and take $1 when you

__ lose. Friend B will pay you $1 when you win but will take $1.01 when

__ lose. Over a couple hundred coin flips, you might do better with
Friend

__ B but I would still prefer Friend A over Friend B. Actually I would

__ Friend C who pays $1.005 for winners and picks up my hotel room : ).

I think the mathematical "wizards" and such lead you to believe

that "full-pay" machines give you a much bigger advantage than they

actually do - in the short term.

__ On almost all video poker games, a short pay machine is shorted on

__ medium frequency hands. Most of the time the royal flush or big
bonus

__ quad hands aren't shorted. So the big hands will happen about as
often

__ on a short pay machine as on a full pay machine.

The 9/5 DDB machines at the Mirage gave me or allowed me to draw the 4

aces with the kicker many times while I was there. That beats going to

the Wynn and losing on the "better" 10/6 machine where I'm "supposed"

to win.

__ This last paragraph sounds like edifess believes a 9/5 DDB will have

__ more chances for aces with a kicker that the 10/6 version. If the
games

__ are fair, that is simply not true.

__ You will get full house or flush about every 45 hands in DDB.

__ Giving up $1.25 every 45 hands is going to add up to quite a bit.
Again

__ using 400 hands per hour, that is about $13 / hour.

__ If you play 2 10/6 DDB machines at Wynn, one may lose money over a 4
hour

__ run and one may win money over the same hours. Does this mean the
winning

__ machine is 'better'. If you believe the machines are fair, it
doesn't matter

__ which of the 2 machines you play. If you don't believe the machines
are fair,

__ then that is an entirely different discussion.

Trust me - I've lost enough at the Palms on many full-pays to realize

that skill is important, as is survival, but luck is even more so.

__ Why do you think you will be more 'lucky' on a short pay machine
instead

__ of a full pay machine?

Any of you locals who have read all the books, played the strategies

and lost plenty ready to finally fess up?

__ You can definitely lose money on full pay machines. My wife recently
played

__ 3 hours of FP Deuces Wild as Sunset Station and lost $500. This is
about as

__ bad as it can get at that game. Guess what , though. If the game
was one of

__ those fake full pay machines where they short the Wild Royal Flush
and the 5 of

__ a kinds, she would have lost even more.

__ It is true that getting lucky ( hitting the big hands) will make your
session a

__ winner. You can call that luck. Why not play the best machine
available? That

__ way, when you get lucky, you win even more and when you get unlucky,
you lose

__ even less.

__ This reminds me of people who lose 3 match play coupons in a row and
then won't

__ play them anymore. If they lose 3 in a row without a matchplay, it
doesn't surprise

__ them but somehow losing with matchplay shouldn't happen. The number
of hands you

__ win and lose doesn't change, just the amount you win.

···

****************************************************************************************

Note: If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you.

****************************************************************************************

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks John! I had wondered how to respond to this thread - you absolutely nailed it. If one cannot wrap their head around your post then we truly have a lost cause...........
   
  If one truly believes that the "good" machines are cheating you, or are gaffed why would you play at all? Better off to play slots as ignorance (of the payback) is bliss!
   
  Jigger
   
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``
   
  Assuming one machine had a better paytable than another, I would of

course prefer it. But, it is tremendously overstated in the short term

what that extra percent or two gets you. And tourists are short term.

__ The extra percent or 2 gets you $5 or $10 an hour playing single line

__ quarters at a leisurely 400 hands per hour. Higher denom or
multiline

__ makes that number much, much higher.

__ Let's say you have two friends who want to wager on a coin flip.

__ Friend A will pay you $1 when you are correct and take $1 when you

__ lose. Friend B will pay you $1 when you win but will take $1.01 when

__ lose. Over a couple hundred coin flips, you might do better with
Friend

__ B but I would still prefer Friend A over Friend B. Actually I would

__ Friend C who pays $1.005 for winners and picks up my hotel room : ).

I think the mathematical "wizards" and such lead you to believe

that "full-pay" machines give you a much bigger advantage than they

actually do - in the short term.

__ On almost all video poker games, a short pay machine is shorted on

__ medium frequency hands. Most of the time the royal flush or big
bonus

__ quad hands aren't shorted. So the big hands will happen about as
often

__ on a short pay machine as on a full pay machine.

The 9/5 DDB machines at the Mirage gave me or allowed me to draw the 4

aces with the kicker many times while I was there. That beats going to

the Wynn and losing on the "better" 10/6 machine where I'm "supposed"

to win.

__ This last paragraph sounds like edifess believes a 9/5 DDB will have

__ more chances for aces with a kicker that the 10/6 version. If the
games

__ are fair, that is simply not true.

__ You will get full house or flush about every 45 hands in DDB.

__ Giving up $1.25 every 45 hands is going to add up to quite a bit.
Again

__ using 400 hands per hour, that is about $13 / hour.

__ If you play 2 10/6 DDB machines at Wynn, one may lose money over a 4
hour

__ run and one may win money over the same hours. Does this mean the
winning

__ machine is 'better'. If you believe the machines are fair, it
doesn't matter

__ which of the 2 machines you play. If you don't believe the machines
are fair,

__ then that is an entirely different discussion.

Trust me - I've lost enough at the Palms on many full-pays to realize

that skill is important, as is survival, but luck is even more so.

__ Why do you think you will be more 'lucky' on a short pay machine
instead

__ of a full pay machine?

Any of you locals who have read all the books, played the strategies

and lost plenty ready to finally fess up?

__ You can definitely lose money on full pay machines. My wife recently
played

__ 3 hours of FP Deuces Wild as Sunset Station and lost $500. This is
about as

__ bad as it can get at that game. Guess what , though. If the game
was one of

__ those fake full pay machines where they short the Wild Royal Flush
and the 5 of

__ a kinds, she would have lost even more.

__ It is true that getting lucky ( hitting the big hands) will make your
session a

__ winner. You can call that luck. Why not play the best machine
available? That

__ way, when you get lucky, you win even more and when you get unlucky,
you lose

__ even less.

__ This reminds me of people who lose 3 match play coupons in a row and
then won't

__ play them anymore. If they lose 3 in a row without a matchplay, it
doesn't surprise

__ them but somehow losing with matchplay shouldn't happen. The number
of hands you

__ win and lose doesn't change, just the amount you win.

···

---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]