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Frugal VP software

#1

Does anyone know if Frugal VP can calcalute the effect of
simplifying/condensing optimum strategy charts? For example, in
All-American when you have unsuited AJ, sometimes you should hold
just the Ace and sometimes you should hold just the Jack. If I
wanted to make a simplfied strategy card for a beginner where you
would always hold the same card in this situation, it would be nice
to be able to figure which has a lesser impact on the EV of the
strategy-- always holding the Jack or always holding the Ace. I
don't see anyway to do this with VPSM or WinPoker.

If it is possible to do this with Frugal VP, are you limited to
changing the order of the holds which appear on the optimum
strategy, or can you add new types of holds? For example, if the
optimum strategy includes the equivalents of "3STFL open" and "3STFL
single-gap" and "3STFL double-gap" could I check the impact of
combing all three into a single "3STFL"?

Thanks in advance for any info.

-JAD

#2

keyen54739 wrote:

Does anyone know if Frugal VP can calcalute the effect of
simplifying/condensing optimum strategy charts?

Yes, with some modest limitations.

FVP allows you to resequence a game strategy and it will determine the
ER of the resulting modification.

This means, for example, you could determine the impact of holding
only one of two pair in double bonus (to push for more quads) if you
were so inclined.

However, if a hold isn't part of the optimal strategy, there's no way
to introduce it into the strategy. Thus, for FPDW, you can't evaluate
what effect holding both of two dealt pair would have.

For example, in All-American when you have unsuited AJ, sometimes
you should hold just the Ace and sometimes you should hold just the
Jack. If I wanted to make a simplfied strategy card for a beginner
where you would always hold the same card in this situation, it
would be nice to be able to figure which has a lesser impact on the
EV of the strategy-- always holding the Jack or always holding the
Ace. I don't see anyway to do this with VPSM or WinPoker.

Keep in mind that the difference between holding an unsuited AJ vs. a
lone Jack in All American involves factoring in the presence of
penalty cards. (If there's another card in the hand suited the same
as the Jack, you hold AJ, otherwise you hold only the Jack.)

The strategies in FVP do not incorporate penalty card rules,
recognizing that including penalty considerations in your play gains
you only a fractional addition to ER. Therefore, the effect of taking
penalties into account or ignoring them can't be measured with FVP.

The basic rule in this case, that any beginner or intermediate player
is advised to follow, is hold just the Jack. (btw, you never hold a
lone Ace in this case ... thinking of DB, maybe :wink:

(Just as a sidenote - if you choose to take penalties into account
during your FVP practice, the software will recognize when your
modified hold is superior over the basic strategy hold and
appropriately not flag an error.)

If it is possible to do this with Frugal VP, are you limited to
changing the order of the holds which appear on the optimum
strategy, or can you add new types of holds? For example, if the
optimum strategy includes the equivalents of "3STFL open" and "3STFL
single-gap" and "3STFL double-gap" could I check the impact of
combing all three into a single "3STFL"?

As I noted, you can't introduce a new hold, but it will automatically
combine "special case" holds into a more generic one when you place
them adjacent to one another. That would be the case in your example.

- Harry

#3

Thanks for your response, Harry. I made a very basic All-American
strategy card for my wife (who doesn't have any interest in learning
more complex stategy) and always wondered how close the stategy
would be to optimum stategy. Hopefully I can use FVP to approximate
the cost of the simplifications. The process of condensing VPSM-
style strategy charts would be much easier and more accurate with
some means of weighing the cost (in decreased EV) versus the benefit
(in terms of simplification) of various modifications.

You are correct about the origin of my mistatement about the Ace-
only hold--- although I play All-American almost exclusively, a
recent trip to the Atlantis in Reno forced me to learn 10/7/80 DB
strategy, and I had a momentary lapse.

-JAD

#4

keyen54739 wrote:

I made a very basic All-American strategy card for my wife (who
doesn't have any interest in learning more complex stategy)

You may wish to rush delivery of Frugal VP.

While the frequency of penalty situations in AA aren't as frequent as
DB, they still occur often enough that the flagging of errors in those
cases with winpoker can be totally frustrating to a novice player. As
discussed before, FVP will stick strickly to it's basic strategy in
flagging errors.

I speak from personal experience. My wife is an adept player of basic
strategy, but still is frustrated when winpoker flags a strategy error
due to a penalty. I wouldn't dream of letting her loose on anything
but FVP for DB or AA. (I never got the chance to have her broach AA
since its appearances in AC were abbreviated ... when it comes to DB,
I've long since run from the only 10/7 machine in AC - a $1 one.)

The process of condensing VPSM-style strategy charts would be much
easier and more accurate with some means of weighing the cost (in
decreased EV) versus the benefit (in terms of simplification) of
various modifications.

Early on in my DB play I prepared a similar simplified/condensed chart
from VPSM. I relied upon the EV's provided by VPSM as a guide in
grouping similar hand that were close in EV hands together, although I
have no idea at what cost (FVP wasn't on the market then - it's been a
fantastic tool since it's introduction).

Shortly thereafter I provided it to someone looking for a strategy
that was formatted to index cards. Apparently it didn't quite pass
muster with his more purist requirements. In return I received the
barest of thanks along with a mildly condescending indication that he
was able to make the necessary corrections. (I was chagrined at first
but have since made allowances that email isn't exactly the best means
of expressing full sentiments :wink:

You are correct about the origin of my mistatement about the Ace-
only hold--- although I play All-American almost exclusively, a
recent trip to the Atlantis in Reno forced me to learn 10/7/80 DB
strategy, and I had a momentary lapse.

That's ok. When I first set about learning AA, a task that endangered
my already severely thinning hairline, it blew out any semblence of DB
strategy mastery. The two are just too damned similar. It took an
extensive remedial winpoker rehabilitation before I felt it was safe
to approach DB again. (To little avail ... my ongoing DB slaughter
continued nonetheless :frowning:

- Harry