vpFREE2 Forums

Fremont Update

#1

The last 2 of the old Pick'ems are at the end of the bar near the snack

bar entrance. You can see the Gamemaker sign over them, Pat<<

All Pick 'Em machines were in place when I was there for the NAB trip in
April. It looks like they took the two least worn out Pick 'Em machines and
put at the end of the bar area. They were being played fairly heavily.

(Just as an FYI, back in the "old" Pick 'Em machine location next to the
bar, they've put in some new machines with two different short pay versions
of Pick-a-Pair.)

As to the other machines in the Keno area..good luck at getting a seat.
Most of the day and night the machines are tied up with folks...playing
Keno. (Shades of Elko!) The machines are fast and the TITO is nice, but the
drink service was pretty weak over there. It seems to be a little known
fact that they put the FP Pick-a-Pair on that bank, as the woman next to me
seemed quite surprised to see me playing it there.

I'm back to the Fremont in June, so I'll have to see what time I need to be
up in the middle of the night to get a seat at any of those machines.

(I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but if you really like
Pick 'Em and don't much care about the short pay tables, you can find some of
the "classic" upright machines in Paris, a couple of old slant top Keno
machines with Pick 'Em at NYNY, a short pay machine at the Rio, and a number
of the GameMaker HD multi-denomination/multi-line/multi game machines at
Mandalay Bay and Caesars. All of these have variations of the short pay
tables, but I've managed to make a couple bucks off the machines in Paris and
NYNY. It's been a couple of years since I've stopped by Greek Isles to see
if the lone Pick 'Em is still there.)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

Hi to all,

Yesterday as we were driving out we stopped at the M for the first time to see what it is all about. I was wondering if any of you know whether they have any Dreamcard machines in the quarter denomination. I found the one in the high limit room and played it for a minute, but I think it would be more fun if it was in quarters. I'd rather play a better game if I'm going to put in $30.00 per bet.

We did walk around but there were so many machines that I could have easily missed any dreamcards out on the floor.

Thanks,
Valerie

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#3

M is showing themselves to have the same business "brilliance" as Ellis.
Knowing what I do about gaming software and databases I suspect they spent a
lot of money to identify people who were picking up free play for others.
They are now trespassing those people.

Now consider the underlying principles:
- Free play is simply giving back a portion of the casino's theoretical win.
Regardless of who picks it up their "cost" is the same. It would make more
sense to "punish" customers who don't give them additional play but we all
know the fallacy in that argument.
- They have 3 $ 9/6 jacks and bunches of 8/5 bonus. Neither of those games
are going to get anyone rich and I'll bet even the bank of jacks is
profitable.

- Even if you consider having someone else pick up free play can they have
"saved" enough money to justify the data mining expense to identify this?

- How about all those people who will be afraid that if they break any rules
at M they will also be formally trespassed? They will take their business to
Green Valley, South Point or Silverton.

- Why wouldn't they warn people first? It's not like these people were
cheating (although Anthony Marnell probably thinks he was being cheated by
them. But if he's that bad a businessman....)

- They have not allowed the trespassed patrons to collect their earned
cashback. They may find themselves in very hot water with Gaming.

Bill

#4

How does a casino know the identity of a person who is redeeming
free play? All they know is whose card is in the reader.

···

On 5/4/10, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@cox.net> wrote:

M is showing themselves to have the same business "brilliance" as Ellis.
Knowing what I do about gaming software and databases I suspect they spent
a
lot of money to identify people who were picking up free play for others.
They are now trespassing those people.

Now consider the underlying principles:
- Free play is simply giving back a portion of the casino's theoretical
win.
Regardless of who picks it up their "cost" is the same. It would make more
sense to "punish" customers who don't give them additional play but we all
know the fallacy in that argument.
- They have 3 $ 9/6 jacks and bunches of 8/5 bonus. Neither of those games
are going to get anyone rich and I'll bet even the bank of jacks is
profitable.

- Even if you consider having someone else pick up free play can they have
"saved" enough money to justify the data mining expense to identify this?

- How about all those people who will be afraid that if they break any
rules
at M they will also be formally trespassed? They will take their business
to
Green Valley, South Point or Silverton.

- Why wouldn't they warn people first? It's not like these people were
cheating (although Anthony Marnell probably thinks he was being cheated by
them. But if he's that bad a businessman....)

- They have not allowed the trespassed patrons to collect their earned
cashback. They may find themselves in very hot water with Gaming.

Bill

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#5

How does a casino know the identity of a person who is redeeming
free play? All they know is whose card is in the reader.

Luke,
They could identify from the eye in the sky and compare to driver's license photo on their database.
They could hire a consultant that knows hustling/hustlers.
They could analyze machine actions of putting free play on several cards at the same machine in a short period of time.

It was fairly common for Team managers to have numerous cards for collecting free play and other opportunities. Kind of lame nowadays with reductions in offers.

And its not cheap to maintain the effort as you need analysts and software. And there can be public relations consequences when the casino fingers a gambler picking up free play for their Mom :slight_smile:
Dave in Beantown

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Luke Fuller <kungalooosh@...> wrote:

How does a casino know the identity of a person who is redeeming
free play? All they know is whose card is in the reader.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#6

Thank you, Dave.

Seems like that kind of effort and expense is overkill.

Now, I'm having my doubts that the story is true. If M is really
identifying "....people who were picking up free play for others"
and is now "....trespassing those people," there has to be
more to the story than we know about. I believe those people
had to be doing something more than cashing Free Play.

···

On 5/4/10, Dave <haaljo@yahoo.com> wrote:

> How does a casino know the identity of a person who is redeeming
> free play? All they know is whose card is in the reader.

Luke,
They could identify from the eye in the sky and compare to driver's license
photo on their database.
They could hire a consultant that knows hustling/hustlers.
They could analyze machine actions of putting free play on several cards at
the same machine in a short period of time.

It was fairly common for Team managers to have numerous cards for
collecting free play and other opportunities. Kind of lame nowadays with
reductions in offers.

And its not cheap to maintain the effort as you need analysts and software.
And there can be public relations consequences when the casino fingers a
gambler picking up free play for their Mom :slight_smile:
Dave in Beantown

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Luke Fuller <kungalooosh@...> wrote:
> How does a casino know the identity of a person who is redeeming
> free play? All they know is whose card is in the reader.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#7

<<I believe those people
had to be doing something more than cashing Free Play.>>

I don't know the details about this at M, but I do know that Hard Rock is actively looking for people who are picking up Free Play for others - and when they find them, they are 86'd.

There are some - how many I don't know - players who make a "business" of using multiple cards, those of relatives or friends or mere business partners, often both doing the play on the cards AND picking up the free play. This is often done where the lower BB levels at a particular casino have a much better EV than the higher ones. So they put smaller play on multiple cards rather than large amounts on just their own play.

No casino likes players who do this, but not all of them make a strong effort to "catch" them. A few do. Most casinos will not have a problem with spouses, partners, or relatives in the same household picking up each other's FP. However, a few are getting touchy even about this. A bad economy has casinos looking for all the "leaks" they can find.

Whether all this is "abusing the system" depends on your ethical standards, which vary considerably in the VP community!

···

________________
Jean $�ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

#8

It's just like a casino to want to blame the players for actually finding ways to use the comps and coupons that they earn or receive.

1. The player accounts involved must have actually earned the coupons to have received them. All freeplay coupons I know of require them to be played before being cashed out. The casinos are the ones who setup the system and determine all of the play requirements.

2. When casinos try to get too cute via various mathematical formulas to send coupons bigger than justified based on some projections of future worth they are asking to get burned by some very smart people. Casinos should base offers almost solely on previous action and the theoretical of the games those players play and not try to slice and dice the play in too many ways that open themselves up to exploitation by manipulation by players who know the system.

3. The entire freeplay system is set up for abuse. Do you honestly expect a person who gets a $500 coupon from a casino (or whatever) who happens to be unable be at the casino in-person on the specified date to not find a friend, relative, or wife to run it through for them. If this is a problem casinos need to go back to having freeplay activated by the players club or cashed at the cage with ID. If you're going to 86 anyone it should be the slot manager who thought he could send out giant freeplay offers and not expect players to find a way to cash everything they get whether they can actually be there or not.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:

<<I believe those people
had to be doing something more than cashing Free Play.>>

I don't know the details about this at M, but I do know that Hard Rock is
actively looking for people who are picking up Free Play for others - and
when they find them, they are 86'd.

There are some - how many I don't know - players who make a "business" of
using multiple cards, those of relatives or friends or mere business
partners, often both doing the play on the cards AND picking up the free
play. This is often done where the lower BB levels at a particular casino
have a much better EV than the higher ones. So they put smaller play on
multiple cards rather than large amounts on just their own play.

No casino likes players who do this, but not all of them make a strong
effort to "catch" them. A few do. Most casinos will not have a problem
with spouses, partners, or relatives in the same household picking up each
other's FP. However, a few are getting touchy even about this. A bad
economy has casinos looking for all the "leaks" they can find.

Whether all this is "abusing the system" depends on your ethical standards,
which vary considerably in the VP community!
________________
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

#9

there are four dreamcard machines between the center bar and the
sportsbook. two 3/5/10 play, two spin poker.

cheers,

five

···

On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Valerie Pollard <vpollard@socal.rr.com> wrote:

Yesterday as we were driving out we stopped at the M for the first time to see what it is all about. I was wondering if any of you know whether they have any Dreamcard machines in the quarter denomination. I found the one in the high limit room and played it for a minute, but I think it would be more fun if it was in quarters. I'd rather play a better game if I'm going to put in $30.00 per bet.

#10

I've seen pepole do this and then put in their freeplay offer in with their own card and play that same machine! It is not really that hard to analyze when there are three or 4 redemptions in the same minute of the day!
Mark

···

--- On Tue, 5/4/10, Dave <haaljo@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Dave <haaljo@yahoo.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: M 86'ings
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 9:23 PM

How does a casino know the identity of a person who is redeeming
free play? All they know is whose card is in the reader.

Luke,
They could identify from the eye in the sky and compare to driver's license photo on their database.
They could hire a consultant that knows hustling/hustlers.
They could analyze machine actions of putting free play on several cards at the same machine in a short period of time.

It was fairly common for Team managers to have numerous cards for collecting free play and other opportunities. Kind of lame nowadays with reductions in offers.

And its not cheap to maintain the effort as you need analysts and software. And there can be public relations consequences when the casino fingers a gambler picking up free play for their Mom :slight_smile:
Dave in Beantown

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups. com, Luke Fuller <kungalooosh@ ...> wrote:

How does a casino know the identity of a person who is redeeming
free play? All they know is whose card is in the reader.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#11

So if MOM is in the hospital, I can't pick up her $3 free play?
That is crazy!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Mark Marsh <butnpushr@...> wrote:

I've seen pepole do this and then put in their freeplay offer in with their own card and play that same machine! It is not really that hard to analyze when there are three or 4 redemptions in the same minute of the day!
Mark

--- On Tue, 5/4/10, Dave <haaljo@...> wrote:

From: Dave <haaljo@...>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: M 86'ings
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 9:23 PM

Â

> How does a casino know the identity of a person who is redeeming
> free play? All they know is whose card is in the reader.
>
Luke,
They could identify from the eye in the sky and compare to driver's license photo on their database.
They could hire a consultant that knows hustling/hustlers.
They could analyze machine actions of putting free play on several cards at the same machine in a short period of time.

It was fairly common for Team managers to have numerous cards for collecting free play and other opportunities. Kind of lame nowadays with reductions in offers.

And its not cheap to maintain the effort as you need analysts and software. And there can be public relations consequences when the casino fingers a gambler picking up free play for their Mom :slight_smile:
Dave in Beantown

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups. com, Luke Fuller <kungalooosh@ ...> wrote:
>
> How does a casino know the identity of a person who is redeeming
> free play? All they know is whose card is in the reader.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]