vpFREE2 Forums

Freeplay.

#1

I am tired of the less than five coins posts.

I thank Steve Jacobs for his reply to the less than five coins topic,
and I thought I would start a new topic by quoting something he said
on it:

"the way to extract maximum
value from the freeplay is to forget about EV and play instead to
minimize
cost. This requires a playing strategy that is quite different than
the
max-EV strategy that the cards/programs teach."

Now, this is very interesting and pertinent. We all get freeplay.
Sometimes a few dollars, sometimes quite a few hundreds of dollars.

What is the best way to extract maximum value from freeplay? Maybe
Steve Jacobs could elaborate, and others present their ideas.

I will not say anything on this, I hate controversy. I will just be a
sponge, read, and absorb with great interest, I assure you.

Regards,

E

#2

mubowor wrote:

Now, this is very interesting and pertinent. We all get freeplay.
Sometimes a few dollars, sometimes quite a few hundreds of dollars.

What is the best way to extract maximum value from freeplay? Maybe
Steve Jacobs could elaborate, and others present their ideas.

Don't take this other than in the relatively constructive manner it is
intended, but it's a fairly dry topic and not terribly pertinent to
the goals of this group.

If you're talking about a player who's in the game to stay (at least
beyond a few sessions), then Free Play basically gets treated the same
as cold hard cash. Maximizing play EV is the name of the game in
either case. End of story.

If we're back to that guy scraping up bus fare (or whatever) and wants
to run with cash as soon as it's available ... well, while perhaps an
interesting academic question, you'll excuse me if I tune that out
just as I might a discussion on optimal panhandling techniques.

I'm not trying to be rude, Ed, and if others want to explore this at
greater length I'm hardly one to object :).

- Harry

#3

mubowor wrote:
> Now, this is very interesting and pertinent. We all get freeplay.
> Sometimes a few dollars, sometimes quite a few hundreds of dollars.
>
> What is the best way to extract maximum value from freeplay? Maybe
> Steve Jacobs could elaborate, and others present their ideas.

Don't take this other than in the relatively constructive manner it is
intended, but it's a fairly dry topic and not terribly pertinent to
the goals of this group.

Well, I guess if the "goals of this group" are to promote this mistaken
notion that "EV is everything," then it isn't teribly pertinent to look
at things other than EV.

If you're talking about a player who's in the game to stay (at least
beyond a few sessions), then Free Play basically gets treated the same
as cold hard cash. Maximizing play EV is the name of the game in
either case. End of story.

What if you're wrong? What if maximizing EV isn't the panacea that
gambling experts the world over make it out to be?

The "best" way to play depends very much on your objective. Let me
illustrate with an example that is much simpler than VP.

Game A is a simple coin toss, with a biased coin that wins 55% of the
time and loses 45% of the time, giving you a 10% edge.

Game B has three possible outcomes, winning 20% of the time, losing
15% of the time, and pushing 65% of the time. This game has an EV
of only 5%. Clearly "inferior" to game A, right?

Now, suppose you are given 10 units to bet, and instructed to play
until you double to 20 units or lose everything in the effort, and told
to maximize the average value of your final bankroll. You may choose
either game or a mixture of games, swithching bets as you choose.
You chose to play game A exclusively, because you "know" that
higher EV is "better". You play this game millions of times, and find
that you reach your goal 88.15% of the time, and lose 10 units the
other 11.85% of the time, for an average gain of 7.63 units per session.
But, if you had chosen game B instead, you would win 94.67% of the
time and lose only 5.33% of the time, for an average gain of 8.93 units
per session.

In any situation where a bonus is involved, you should ask yourself
whether you want to maximize your EV or whether you want to
maximize the probability of having your bankroll last long enough to
claim the bonus.

It is similar to driving a car. If you want to get to your destination as
quickly as possible, you stomp on the gas and drive as fast as you
can safely (or not) drive. But, if it is a long way to the next gas
station and you're not sure you'll make it, slowing down to improve
your gas mileage may save you from getting stranded in the middle
of the desert. Max-EV is analogous to maximum average speed.
Min-ROR is analogous to optimizing gas mileage, giving you the
greatest probability of making it to the next gas stations. Which is
"best" depends on your objective. Unfortunately, gambling "experts"
have been harping on EV so loud and for so long that many
educated gamblers have closed their minds to anything that isn't
max-EV.

···

On Monday 21 July 2003 10:34 am, Harry Porter wrote:

#4

Steve,

Those are some respectible sentiments.

I'll start by noting that in hindsight I was a little unusually curt
in reply to mubowor's (Ed's) post. There was a bit of a knee jerk
reaction that represents the manner in which I shoot down any
impulsive musings of my own that violate a few of the most basic
precepts of my play. Admittedly, such behavior doesn't make for the
most socially acceptable etiquette (... and have owned up to as much
to him privately this evening.)

Let's set aside the EV tack on this all together. My real point is
that cash is cash, is cash (even when we're talking about "near-cash"
such as Free Play). Once it's in the machine there's little rationale
to make a distinction concerning the source of the credits. (And I do
grasp the essential "play through" requirement of Free Play credits,
but the mechanics of the game ultimately make this differece only of
the most minor importance.)

Bottom line, by whatever mechanism you drive your standard play,
there's no reason to treat Free Play and other similar incentives
differently. The same considerations drive management of both.

- Harry

#5

I keep breaking my rules and replying to these messages even after I
said I will not.

First of all, I'm not offended with anyone, least of all Harry Porter
who has been very helpful in the past, for example, with the problem
I had with the Frugal software, and soome ideas on multi play. There
has been some strong language in some messages addressed by some to
me, but I do not take any of that personally. People feel very
strongly about their ideas, and sometimes feel I'm attacking them
which is not the case. I like Video Poker and want to be a better
player and make more money at it, that is all. Video Poker is for me
an entertaining hobby. I can contemplate all the approaches presented
on the subject, and will adopt some, and discard others, according to
whether they suit me or not. I will not become a professional Video
Poker player because I do not live in Las Vegas, and don't want to
devote the time needed to make sure that endeavor could succeed.

Some of my dearest friends and acquaintances play slots. I play slots
myself sometimes. Why waste VP time on those machines? Well, if your
eyes get tired with the video screen on those VP machines, those
reels are very welcome to your eyes; if your mind gets tired of what
cards to hold, those Bonus Video machines are less mentally
demanding. I never look down on the friends who just play slots. Who
knows? Maybe one of them will win Megabucks and buy me lunch.

I will from now on just lurk. Not because I'm offended or anything
like that, but because I get tired of clarifying the same point over
and over and over. I know this is my fault. Looking at a problem over
and over and over from different angles with the different
considerations different people bring is something enriching. So, not
to give up on that entirely, I will lurk and read the messages.

The different posts are interesting. Mrs. Scott has also commented on
the subject. She is lucky to get freeplay every month at the Palms.
Now, that problem is different than the one I proposed in my less
than five coins message. Mrs. Scott's math problem is, "you get
monthly freeplay at the Palms of a few hundreds of dollars, what is
the best way to use it?" Her solution is the correct one, of course,
she plays the machines at the Palms with the highest payback, and
perfect strategy, FPDW.

Let me state my old problem in another way. A slot fanatic gets $200
freeplay at Treasure Island and she can't use it on her favorite slot
machines, the slots with the French Baker at Paris. What is she to
do? She wants the most money out of that $200 to run to Paris with
the cash. She plays VP and knows about paytables, risk of ruin and
all that. One thing she can't do, I assure you, is play FPDW, no such
animal at TI.

I have a feeling most people would like to enjoy themselves insulting
that lady who wants to have fun with her baguettes at Paris, and put
her down for not being a VP fanatic. Even if that is the case, those
insults do not change for her the mathematical problem she has, which
is different than the mathematical problems that arise in other
contexts.

Regards,

E

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:

Steve,

Those are some respectible sentiments.

I'll start by noting that in hindsight I was a little unusually curt
in reply to mubowor's (Ed's) post. There was a bit of a knee jerk
reaction that represents the manner in which I shoot down any
impulsive musings of my own that violate a few of the most basic
precepts of my play. Admittedly, such behavior doesn't make for the
most socially acceptable etiquette (... and have owned up to as much
to him privately this evening.)

Let's set aside the EV tack on this all together. My real point is
that cash is cash, is cash (even when we're talking about "near-

cash"

such as Free Play). Once it's in the machine there's little

rationale

to make a distinction concerning the source of the credits. (And I

do

···

grasp the essential "play through" requirement of Free Play credits,
but the mechanics of the game ultimately make this differece only of
the most minor importance.)

Bottom line, by whatever mechanism you drive your standard play,
there's no reason to treat Free Play and other similar incentives
differently. The same considerations drive management of both.

- Harry

#6

"E" -

At the further risk of wearing out my welcome with what have become
some frequent posts (and therefore potentially becoming tedious), I'm
going to chime in again.

There's no need to lurk. After all, if you look at the activity in
reply to your "less than five coins", you received a considerable
amount of thoughtful, constructive input of which I'd suspect you're
appreciative.

There is one aspect of that thread that I think served to diminish its
satisfaction for you (and others). The best basis for a discussion is
a central, well-defined question or issue that's explored to the
satisfaction of all who choose to engage.

If you review the thread, it would appear that to some extent you were
after a moving target. Now, don't get me wrong. When you have a
chance to think through a subject as the discussion proceeds, changing
perceptions and new ideas are going to perculate up. But when the
discussion shimmies as much as this one did, people lose their focus.
Some people will lose interest (or become impatient), others will
lose track of the central point that you're after. A steady focus is
essential, although it may be the case than tantential thoughts might
provide fodder for a new discussion.

Trust that those are some humble observations. If there's food in
that for you to gain some insight on how you might direct the next
discussion you initiate, well, then good. If not, toss them out with
the other stale leftovers in the morning.

···

------

Touching on your Free Play comment, I can't speak for others, but
there's not a whole lot of analytic meat here.

Because you generate Free Play only with reasonably serious play in a
casino, I truly fail to grasp why you'd treat it any differently than
the hard cash you chuck into a machine.

You raise a few examples that I suppose are of a somewhat playful
academic interest, but there's little source of real practical insight
for me -- and bottom line, that's what I'm here for (along with some
good general comraderie).

Your hypothetical TI/Paris Free Play player isn't going to sweat the
Free Play question as much as you. I think their instinct is going to
be to play it off just like they did the play that earned it.

------

Bottom line: Consider this group a recreational fishing pond. You
drop in a line baited with a musing that tickles your fancy. If the
bait is taken and in turn you end up with a basket full of choice fish
then you've reaped the best of the group. If you find you're
frustrated because the bait is thrown back in your face a little,
well, you may be fishing the wrong pond on that question. But there's
still much more that can be harvested here.

- Harry

mubowor wrote:

I will from now on just lurk. Not because I'm offended or anything
like that, but because I get tired of clarifying the same point over
and over and over. I know this is my fault. Looking at a problem
over and over and over from different angles with the different
considerations different people bring is something enriching.

Let me state my old problem in another way. A slot fanatic gets $200
freeplay at Treasure Island and she can't use it on her favorite
slot machines, the slots with the French Baker at Paris. What is she
to do? She wants the most money out of that $200 to run to Paris
with the cash. She plays VP and knows about paytables, risk of ruin
and all that. One thing she can't do, I assure you, is play FPDW, no
such animal at TI.

#7

Harry,

Point well taken. I will not be tedious myself.

I just want to comment on something you apparently are not aware of.
Some people are getting mailers from TI these days that include
considerable freeplay. All sorts of people, some are avid VP players,
some are not, some give TI a lot of play, others not. I know a few of
these recipients of recent TI largesse, so I know this is a fact. I
don't know the management at TI, so I don't know any details about
this program. All I know is that all of a sudden people that have not
set foot in TI in years have in their hands coupos for freeplay
there. Regards.

E

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:

"E" -

At the further risk of wearing out my welcome with what have become
some frequent posts (and therefore potentially becoming tedious),

I'm

going to chime in again.

There's no need to lurk. After all, if you look at the activity in
reply to your "less than five coins", you received a considerable
amount of thoughtful, constructive input of which I'd suspect you're
appreciative.

There is one aspect of that thread that I think served to diminish

its

satisfaction for you (and others). The best basis for a discussion

is

a central, well-defined question or issue that's explored to the
satisfaction of all who choose to engage.

If you review the thread, it would appear that to some extent you

were

after a moving target. Now, don't get me wrong. When you have a
chance to think through a subject as the discussion proceeds,

changing

perceptions and new ideas are going to perculate up. But when the
discussion shimmies as much as this one did, people lose their

focus.

Some people will lose interest (or become impatient), others will
lose track of the central point that you're after. A steady focus

is

essential, although it may be the case than tantential thoughts

might

provide fodder for a new discussion.

Trust that those are some humble observations. If there's food in
that for you to gain some insight on how you might direct the next
discussion you initiate, well, then good. If not, toss them out

with

the other stale leftovers in the morning.

------

Touching on your Free Play comment, I can't speak for others, but
there's not a whole lot of analytic meat here.

Because you generate Free Play only with reasonably serious play in

a

casino, I truly fail to grasp why you'd treat it any differently

than

the hard cash you chuck into a machine.

You raise a few examples that I suppose are of a somewhat playful
academic interest, but there's little source of real practical

insight

for me -- and bottom line, that's what I'm here for (along with some
good general comraderie).

Your hypothetical TI/Paris Free Play player isn't going to sweat the
Free Play question as much as you. I think their instinct is going

to

be to play it off just like they did the play that earned it.

------

Bottom line: Consider this group a recreational fishing pond. You
drop in a line baited with a musing that tickles your fancy. If the
bait is taken and in turn you end up with a basket full of choice

fish

then you've reaped the best of the group. If you find you're
frustrated because the bait is thrown back in your face a little,
well, you may be fishing the wrong pond on that question. But

there's

still much more that can be harvested here.

- Harry

mubowor wrote:

> I will from now on just lurk. Not because I'm offended or

anything

> like that, but because I get tired of clarifying the same point

over

> and over and over. I know this is my fault. Looking at a problem
> over and over and over from different angles with the different
> considerations different people bring is something enriching.
>
> Let me state my old problem in another way. A slot fanatic gets

$200

> freeplay at Treasure Island and she can't use it on her favorite
> slot machines, the slots with the French Baker at Paris. What is

she

> to do? She wants the most money out of that $200 to run to Paris
> with the cash. She plays VP and knows about paytables, risk of

ruin

> and all that. One thing she can't do, I assure you, is play FPDW,

no

···

> such animal at TI.

#8

Let's set aside the EV tack on this all together. �My real point is
that cash is cash, is cash (even when we're talking about "near-cash"
such as Free Play). �

Sorry, but "near cash" is fundamentally different than real cash. This is
true whether the "near cash" is freeplay, or match-play chips/coupons,
or any other form of bonus. Those who do not understand the distinction
have no hope of extracting maximum value from "near cash," because it
almost always requires an altered strategy to achieve optimal results.

Once it's in the machine there's little rationale
to make a distinction concerning the source of the credits.

The distinction here isn't about the SOURCE of the credits, but the
DESTINATION. Clearly, credits that you can freely cash out are
quite different than credits that you must play. In addition, the freeplay
represent a "limited resource" that you can't replenish by feeding in
more coins from your pocket. Freeplay turns a neg-EV machine into an
overall positive proposition, so the fact that the source is "thin air" does
make a difference.

Bottom line, by whatever mechanism you drive your standard play,
there's no reason to treat Free Play and other similar incentives
differently. �The same considerations drive management of both.

I'll partly agree here. Players should take risk and EV both into
consideration when deciding how to attack any given situation.
However, that doesn't mean that bonus mechanisms are
indistinguishable from cash. Most bonus mechanisms cause the
"cash equivalent" to be significantly different than "face value."

Here's one possible test of whether a situation is "different" than
standard play -- ask yourself if you plan to continue playing the
same machine after you've qualified to cash out the bonus. If
the answer is "no" then I claim the situation is inherently different
than "standard play."

Bottom line: if "max-EV play" is the only tool you have, then you
cannot expect to be able to correctly solve problems that call for
min-ROR tools. When the goal is to turn a limited resource into
the most possible cash, min-ROR strategies are called for.

--Steve

···

On Monday 21 July 2003 10:39 pm, Harry Porter wrote:

#9

Steve Jacobs wrote:

Sorry, but "near cash" is fundamentally different than real cash.
This is true whether the "near cash" is freeplay, or match-play
chips/coupons, or any other form of bonus. Those who do not
understand the distinction have no hope of extracting maximum value
from "near cash," because it almost always requires an altered
strategy to achieve optimal results.

Steve, I'll back down on the discussion. I'm discussing it from a
very limited perspective and will admit that there are a broader set
of circumstances under which "pure" EV considerations aren't appropriate.

I'm a recreational player who doesn't use Free Play other than to play
games that I'd otherwise play on my own dime, and other than to play
in casinos in which I intend to continue to play.

Under those limited circumstances, I hold that the considerations I
apply in choosing which games I play with my own money would be those
that would drive what machines I'd play with Free Play.

However, for the sake of example, a player taking advantage of a promo
who wants to make a "hit and run" at a casino that does not have plays
that would otherwise be considered playable on that player's "own
dime", would certainly make choices based on other considerations.

- Harry