Private email to Administrator:
"Two days ago (September 28th): Found $1/$2 FPDW at
Harveys Lake Tahoe, located just outside the Mountain
Tower elevators where the $1 DDlx used to be. Three out
of a bank of six machines, they are brand new, fast
(1,000+ hph) slant tops."
Any bets on how long these will be there?
George in SF
----- Original Message -----
From: vpFREE
To: vpFREE_Reno@Yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 10:36 AM
Subject: [vpFREE_Reno] FPDW @ Harveys Lake Tahoe
Private email to Administrator:
"Two days ago (September 28th): Found $1/$2 FPDW at
Harveys Lake Tahoe, located just outside the Mountain
Tower elevators where the $1 DDlx used to be. Three out
of a bank of six machines, they are brand new, fast
(1,000+ hph) slant tops."
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's a small sample, but the average life expectancy of internet-
publicized $FPDW is @ 2 weeks.
These games have been "alive" for at least a month, but they're now
terminally ill (as you suggest). Pay your respects while there's
still time to do so. 
2-W
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "george" <wxmen@f...> wrte:
Any bets on how long these will be there?
George in SF
----- Original Message -----
From: vpFREE
To: vpFREE_Reno@Y...
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 10:36 AM
Subject: [vpFREE_Reno] FPDW @ Harveys Lake TahoePrivate email to Administrator:
"Two days ago (September 28th): Found $1/$2 FPDW at
Harveys Lake Tahoe, located just outside the Mountain
Tower elevators where the $1 DDlx used to be. Three out
of a bank of six machines, they are brand new, fast
(1,000+ hph) slant tops."vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
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Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE_Reno/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vpFREE_Reno-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
looks like a japanese team has moved in
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "2-WILD" <lucky4k@c...> wrote:
It's a small sample, but the average life expectancy of internet-
publicized $FPDW is @ 2 weeks.These games have been "alive" for at least a month, but they're now
terminally ill (as you suggest). Pay your respects while there's
still time to do so.2-W
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "george" <wxmen@f...> wrte:
> Any bets on how long these will be there?
>
> George in SF
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: vpFREE
> To: vpFREE_Reno@Y...
> Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 10:36 AM
> Subject: [vpFREE_Reno] FPDW @ Harveys Lake Tahoe
>
>
>
>
> Private email to Administrator:
>
> "Two days ago (September 28th): Found $1/$2 FPDW at
> Harveys Lake Tahoe, located just outside the Mountain
> Tower elevators where the $1 DDlx used to be. Three out
> of a bank of six machines, they are brand new, fast
> (1,000+ hph) slant tops."
>
>
>
>
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE_Reno/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> vpFREE_Reno-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of
Service.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
These games have been there since at least May. Hardly anyone knew
about them, and often the bank was empty. It is really
disheartening to me that this was made public; I do a lot of
scouting and it's not fun, because 99.9% of the paytables I check
are no good. I find a great play that lasts for months, then it's
over in one post.
Plays like this can last a lot longer than people think if they are
not posted, and they get destroyed once posted. Nobody that makes
significant money at video poker thinks otherwise.
> > Private email to Administrator:
> >
> > "Two days ago (September 28th): Found $1/$2 FPDW at
> > Harveys Lake Tahoe, located just outside the Mountain
> > Tower elevators where the $1 DDlx used to be. Three out
> > of a bank of six machines, they are brand new, fast
> > (1,000+ hph) slant tops."
believe me brother, i feel your pain
once a good play gets posted to the internet (and to the world), its
days are numbered
"loose lips sink ships"
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "LoungeLizard" <llounge2001@y...>
wrote:
These games have been there since at least May. Hardly anyone knew
about them, and often the bank was empty. It is really
disheartening to me that this was made public; I do a lot of
scouting and it's not fun, because 99.9% of the paytables I check
are no good. I find a great play that lasts for months, then it's
over in one post.Plays like this can last a lot longer than people think if they are
not posted, and they get destroyed once posted. Nobody that makes
significant money at video poker thinks otherwise.> > > Private email to Administrator:
> > >
> > > "Two days ago (September 28th): Found $1/$2 FPDW at
> > > Harveys Lake Tahoe, located just outside the Mountain
> > > Tower elevators where the $1 DDlx used to be. Three out
> > > of a bank of six machines, they are brand new, fast
> > > (1,000+ hph) slant tops."
IMO, everyone should do what they perceive to be in their
best interest (subject to ethical/legal considerations).
If you discover a good play and decide that disclosure will
kill the play, keeping it as secret as possible and trying to
prolong the play for your benefit makes sense.
However, you should realize that the play will eventually be
outed, and that openess might have caused the play to
survive permanently or last longer.
OTOH, secrecy isn't in the best interest, or a viable option,
for the vpFREE community as a whole. Prolonging a play
through secrecy doesn't make sense for anyone other than
the few who will take advantage of the play (and in the case
of vpFREE members, have chosen not to share the play with
their community). vpFREE's interest is in having and sharing
good games that are available to everyone in an open market
environment.
vpFREE Administrator
On 2 Oct 2004 at 7:35, LoungeLizard wrote:
These games have been there since at least May. Hardly anyone knew
about them, and often the bank was empty. It is really
disheartening to me that this was made public; I do a lot of
scouting and it's not fun, because 99.9% of the paytables I check
are no good. I find a great play that lasts for months, then it's
over in one post.
Plays like this can last a lot longer than people think if they are
not posted, and they get destroyed once posted. Nobody that makes
significant money at video poker thinks otherwise.
IMO this falls into the urban legends category.
Exactly why casinos initiate, keep and eliminate good
plays probably varies in each instance, and whether
or not openness or secrecy is best for prolonging a
newly discovered play is never clear cut. Likewise,
unless you go with openness and it succeeds, it's
impossible to know if the unchosen option would have
been better or worse.
For example, if the $1/$2 FPDW play at Harveys disappears
sometime soon, it could be because of lack of activity
from May to October, or because most of the play has been
done by advantage players. Openness from the time of
discovery might have resulted in more play, including a
larger percentage from less adept players. Or it might not,
we'll never know.
In any event, my observation is that internet exposure
isn't that important in killing good plays. Listed below
are all of the 100.5% + machine EVs on Dollar or better
VP that I recall (and that were reported on vpFREE)
since vpFREE started in JAN 2001.
Several continue to exist, and IMO, the only one where
internet exposure MAY have been a major contribting factor
is Silver Legacy, and it could just as easily have died
for a lot of other reasons.
$1/$2 FPDW and $1 DWdlx @ Harveys Tahoe
$1 FPDW and JW @ Peppermill Reno
$1 FPDW @ Western Village Sparks
$1 AA @ Borgata Atlantic City
$1 FPDW @ Whiskey Pete's Primm
$1 10/7/80 DB @ Atlantis Reno
$1 DDW, JW and 10/7/80 DB @ El Cortez LV
$1 FPDW, JW and 10/7/80 DB @ Rainbow Club Henderson
$1 AA @ Harrah's KC
$1 AA @ Harrah's Prairie Bend Kansas
$1 JW @ Copa Gulfport
$1 FPDW @ Silver Legacy Reno
Other examples and comments are welcome.
vpFREE Administrator
On 2 Oct 2004 at 18:34, nightoftheiguana2000 wrote:
believe me brother, i feel your pain once a good play
gets posted to the internet (and to the world), its days
are numbered "loose lips sink ships"
.>
IMO, everyone should do what they perceive to be in their
best interest (subject to ethical/legal considerations).If you discover a good play and decide that disclosure will
kill the play, keeping it as secret as possible and trying to
prolong the play for your benefit makes sense.However, you should realize that the play will eventually be
outed, and that openess might have caused the play to
survive permanently or last longer.OTOH, secrecy isn't in the best interest, or a viable option,
for the vpFREE community as a whole. Prolonging a play
through secrecy doesn't make sense for anyone other than
the few who will take advantage of the play (and in the case
of vpFREE members, have chosen not to share the play with
their community). vpFREE's interest is in having and sharing
good games that are available to everyone in an open market
environment.vpFREE Administrator
As usual, the well thought out and reasonable post
by our fine administrator!
I'm not sure WHICH side of this issue I'm on and can see merit in
both points of view, so I'll just refrain from commenting and read
other's views.
I will say, this topic has generated more response on the vpFREEreno
forum than anything I've read since becoming a member. Since I go to
Reno 2-3 times a year, in addition to my more frequent LV visits,
I'd really like to see more posting on this forum.
Babe
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE" <vpFREE@C...> wrote:
Okay ... I'll comment.
I have great respect for your opinions because you are a PLAYER (and,
of course because you're the boss here 
... but I think you'll
find more than a little disagreement on this issue.
Of the opportunities listed above, I would only include dollar JW,
FPDW, and AA (the best of the best). And some of the games on your
list (PM deuces) might have lasted longer because they were available
at a time when there were fewer knowledgeable players and the
internet was not the major VP resource it is today. $AA also stands
a good chance of lasting longer because of the complicated strategy
(slower play) and higher error rate.
Others on the list had some sort of deficiency (casino location, lack
of slot benefits/cashback, coin-droppers, slow speed etc) that made
them less attractive to pros (those who lock up and soon kill a play)
or overplay by recreational players ... and that gave them a better
chance at survival.
Nowadays, fast new machines (tito) with dollar up FPDW, JW, or AA in
populous areas (Reno, LV, Tahoe) in casinos with good slot benefits
are going to be quickly locked up by pros or overplayed by
recreational players once word gets out on the internet ... IMO. But
let's not test this assumption.
I recognize and applaud your vision to make vpFREE a valuable
resource for players ... but publicizing games like these probably
causes more harm than good.
2-W
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE" <vpFREE@C...> wrote:
In any event, my observation is that internet exposure
isn't that important in killing good plays. Listed below
are all of the 100.5% + machine EVs on Dollar or better
VP that I recall (and that were reported on vpFREE)
since vpFREE started in JAN 2001.Several continue to exist, and IMO, the only one where
internet exposure MAY have been a major contribting factor
is Silver Legacy, and it could just as easily have died
for a lot of other reasons.$1/$2 FPDW and $1 DWdlx @ Harveys Tahoe
$1 FPDW and JW @ Peppermill Reno
$1 FPDW @ Western Village Sparks
$1 AA @ Borgata Atlantic City
$1 FPDW @ Whiskey Pete's Primm
$1 10/7/80 DB @ Atlantis Reno
$1 DDW, JW and 10/7/80 DB @ El Cortez LV
$1 FPDW, JW and 10/7/80 DB @ Rainbow Club Henderson
$1 AA @ Harrah's KC
$1 AA @ Harrah's Prairie Bend Kansas
$1 JW @ Copa Gulfport
$1 FPDW @ Silver Legacy RenoOther examples and comments are welcome.
vpFREE Administrator
snip......
Well, since I practically live next door to Harveys, I had to go
check out these machines. Saturday morning at 10:00 am, and no one
was to be found
A woman did come up and take about $150 from one
while I was there. Wish I could have said the same for me. They are
a little too $$ for my level of play, but the controversy on here
has been interesting to follow.
Ray
Nowadays, fast new machines (tito) with dollar up FPDW, JW, or AA
in
populous areas (Reno, LV, Tahoe) in casinos with good slot benefits
are going to be quickly locked up by pros or overplayed by
recreational players once word gets out on the internet ... IMO.
But
let's not test this assumption.
I recognize and applaud your vision to make vpFREE a valuable
resource for players ... but publicizing games like these probably
causes more harm than good.2-W
I'll weigh into this interesting discussion.
I think that machines being yanked out are pulled for a couple of
different reasons.
1. The good play that pros beat to death locking up machines snd
playing continuously until they are pulled because they do not make
money. That seems to be a good business decision to me. I personally
played a 102% $ play for over a year, playing only one day a week.
There apparently were enough bad players that the casino made money
on the machine until a group of pros discovered the play and burned
it out. The irony of the whole thing was that I would not have known
about the play if it had not been posted on the internet.
2. The bean counters in the back office saying that they need a
particular profit return on each machine in the house. This attitude
has killed a lot of plays that are profitable for the casinos, but
simply don't achieve the desired rate of return. I think that is
what is causing decent, though less than 100% plays, to be pulled
from the casinos--especially on the strip in Vegas. Most of the time
the casino goes in with an ax instead of a scalpel when a play is not
making enough money. I think of the 3/5 plays at NYNY which were
pulled comnpletely because they had SA which with cashback was a
positive play, and got heavy play from people who were wanting max
comp benefits. Had they left the machines there with the 9/6 JOB and
NSUD they would have continued to make money for the casino and
brought in good visitor traffic. I think the same attitue can be seen
in the 6:5 payoff on BJ at some casinos. It is not difficult to have
a good, recreational player, BJ game that cannot be beaten by the
best counters, but I think the accountants have a higher win
percentage number as a goal. As a result, a lot of recreational BJ
players completely avoid those casinos with the 6:5 games, and the
casino percentage goes way up. I would be interested to know if the
total earnings per table goes up with the percentage, or, if as I
suspect, the total win is down but the percentage numbers are up.
Another caregory of decent plays are the oversights by the Casino. I
know of a casino where the bosses have obviously decided that they
would eliminate all games with a playback over a certain percentage,
but they have missed a machine. I would not hesitate to post it if I
knew there were no casino lurkers on this list because even though it
is not positive, it is a very good visitor play, and members of this
group would enjoy the play as a visitor play.
Just my 2-cents worth.
very interesting
they might be kicking players out (which would be a good thing)
the comp is pretty weak
a team moved in on caesar's $5 pick'em a while back and killed it
pretty quick, but the comp is much more valuable
snip......
Well, since I practically live next door to Harveys, I had to go
check out these machines. Saturday morning at 10:00 am, and no one
was to be found A woman did come up and take about $150 from
one
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "raysf" <rayf@m...> wrote:
while I was there. Wish I could have said the same for me. They are
a little too $$ for my level of play, but the controversy on here
has been interesting to follow.Ray
one more comment, the short term on deuces is pretty rough, without a
royal or deuces you're looking at about a 5% loss
-.05 x $10bet/hand x 1000hands/hour= -$500/hr
snip......
Well, since I practically live next door to Harveys, I had to go
check out these machines. Saturday morning at 10:00 am, and no one
was to be found A woman did come up and take about $150 from
one
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "raysf" <rayf@m...> wrote:
while I was there. Wish I could have said the same for me. They are
a little too $$ for my level of play, but the controversy on here
has been interesting to follow.Ray