vpFREE2 Forums

Fences, Polls, and Humble Opinions...

I heard it once said that some casinos will spend $10 to keep any player
from having a $5 advantage. IF consultants can help the casino executive
see the foolishness of this approach then I can see how consultants might
help the average VP player.

Yes, now that you mention it, I saw this during my long-ago career as a
blackjack dealer. If someone was winning at a high-limit table, the boss
would tell the dealer to start shuffling up after every few hands. Their
"logic" was either pure superstition, or the correct understanding poor deck
penetration makes card-counting unprofitable.

But it was a losing proposition for them. Since the bosses didn't even
understand basic strategy, they couldn't accurately identify card-counters.
So it was almost always the case that the frequent shuffling either chased
away the winning player (who in fact was a clueless player who otherwise
would have lost it back), or slowed down the game so much that it hurt the
casino's expected profit from all the players at the table. Since the bosses
didn't understand the math, didn't understand for instance what a small edge
even card-counters have, they tended to wildly OVER-estimate the importance
of guarding against advantage players.

If the bosses accurately understood the math of advantage blackjack play,
its more likely that they wouldn't act like this, or perhaps confine their
efforts to only the highest limits, allowing the lower limit fleas to
happily survive.

It's often noted that the appearance of "Beat the Dealer" advantage
blackjack systems led to a dramatic INCREASE in casino blackjack profits.
This isn't necessarily the result I would have predicted. But that's the way
it happened, so intelligent, informed casino execs would take that effect
into account in their attitude towards advantage opportunities.

Stuart

···

From: "ednar" <ednar@kconline.com>

Stuart. Yes when my dad (lol) wrote that book (my real last name is Thorpe) it did bring about the unintended consequence that casinos earned more money. I think to some extent the original Fiesta worked along this same principle to an extent. Plenty of the best paytables.... It sure seemed to create a good start for the Maloofs.

I am betting that if a large enough casino utilized this approach they could market it to death and be very successful. However putting in only 28 good machines will only bring the top players to those machines. There has to be enough that the ploppies will think just because they are sitting at a good machine they will be successful. And of course they will do better than they would if sitting at a poor paytable. (A full house that pays 45 is always better than one that pays 40). But the casinos will still make money if they market appropriately.

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Resnick" <sresnick2@comcast.net>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Fences, Polls, and Humble Opinions...

From: "ednar" <ednar@kconline.com>

I heard it once said that some casinos will spend $10 to keep any player
from having a $5 advantage. IF consultants can help the casino executive
see the foolishness of this approach then I can see how consultants might
help the average VP player.

Yes, now that you mention it, I saw this during my long-ago career as a
blackjack dealer. If someone was winning at a high-limit table, the boss
would tell the dealer to start shuffling up after every few hands. Their
"logic" was either pure superstition, or the correct understanding poor deck
penetration makes card-counting unprofitable.

But it was a losing proposition for them. Since the bosses didn't even
understand basic strategy, they couldn't accurately identify card-counters.
So it was almost always the case that the frequent shuffling either chased
away the winning player (who in fact was a clueless player who otherwise
would have lost it back), or slowed down the game so much that it hurt the
casino's expected profit from all the players at the table. Since the bosses
didn't understand the math, didn't understand for instance what a small edge
even card-counters have, they tended to wildly OVER-estimate the importance
of guarding against advantage players.

If the bosses accurately understood the math of advantage blackjack play,
its more likely that they wouldn't act like this, or perhaps confine their
efforts to only the highest limits, allowing the lower limit fleas to
happily survive.

It's often noted that the appearance of "Beat the Dealer" advantage
blackjack systems led to a dramatic INCREASE in casino blackjack profits.
This isn't necessarily the result I would have predicted. But that's the way
it happened, so intelligent, informed casino execs would take that effect
into account in their attitude towards advantage opportunities.

Stuart

you know,i have only been playing at downtown
casinos,and i dont see alot of people pouncing on
those so called full pay games. why not? and can
anybody say that those machines at binion have alot of
people playing them?

···

--- ednar <ednar@kconline.com> wrote:

Stuart. Yes when my dad (lol) wrote that book (my
real last name is Thorpe)
it did bring about the unintended consequence that
casinos earned more
money. I think to some extent the original Fiesta
worked along this same
principle to an extent. Plenty of the best
paytables.... It sure seemed to
create a good start for the Maloofs.

I am betting that if a large enough casino utilized
this approach they could
market it to death and be very successful. However
putting in only 28 good
machines will only bring the top players to those
machines. There has to be
enough that the ploppies will think just because
they are sitting at a good
machine they will be successful. And of course they
will do better than they
would if sitting at a poor paytable. (A full house
that pays 45 is always
better than one that pays 40). But the casinos will
still make money if they
market appropriately.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stuart Resnick" <sresnick2@comcast.net>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Fences, Polls, and Humble
Opinions...

> From: "ednar" <ednar@kconline.com>
>> I heard it once said that some casinos will spend
$10 to keep any player
>> from having a $5 advantage. IF consultants can
help the casino executive
>> see the foolishness of this approach then I can
see how consultants might
>> help the average VP player.
>
> Yes, now that you mention it, I saw this during my
long-ago career as a
> blackjack dealer. If someone was winning at a
high-limit table, the boss
> would tell the dealer to start shuffling up after
every few hands. Their
> "logic" was either pure superstition, or the
correct understanding poor
> deck
> penetration makes card-counting unprofitable.
>
> But it was a losing proposition for them. Since
the bosses didn't even
> understand basic strategy, they couldn't
accurately identify
> card-counters.
> So it was almost always the case that the frequent
shuffling either chased
> away the winning player (who in fact was a
clueless player who otherwise
> would have lost it back), or slowed down the game
so much that it hurt the
> casino's expected profit from all the players at
the table. Since the
> bosses
> didn't understand the math, didn't understand for
instance what a small
> edge
> even card-counters have, they tended to wildly
OVER-estimate the
> importance
> of guarding against advantage players.
>
> If the bosses accurately understood the math of
advantage blackjack play,
> its more likely that they wouldn't act like this,
or perhaps confine their
> efforts to only the highest limits, allowing the
lower limit fleas to
> happily survive.
>
> It's often noted that the appearance of "Beat the
Dealer" advantage
> blackjack systems led to a dramatic INCREASE in
casino blackjack profits.
> This isn't necessarily the result I would have
predicted. But that's the
> way
> it happened, so intelligent, informed casino execs
would take that effect
> into account in their attitude towards advantage
opportunities.
>
> Stuart

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yes the full pay games around town are often full.
Of course some places are more attractive than others.

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "ale j" <beaverjoe277@yahoo.com>

you know,i have only been playing at downtown
casinos,and i dont see alot of people pouncing on
those so called full pay games. why not? and can
anybody say that those machines at binion have alot of
people playing them?