vpFREE2 Forums

FAQ definitions of ER and EV

I have read the FAQs we are encouraged to read, and one part I do not
understand is that relating to ER and EV. This is the definition
there:

···

On 3 Oct 2003 at 22:47, mubowor wrote:
                                 *****************

"42. What does Expected Return (ER) mean? - ER is a percentage
return figure and it equals [EV divided by Coin-in]. In video poker
circles, EV is sometimes used incorrectly as being interchangeable with
ER.

43. What does Expected Value (EV) mean? - EV = [ER] X [Coin-
in]. EV is the sum of [all possible outcomes times the probability of
the outcomes occurring]. The EV of a video poker hand is the average
value of all the wins attainable, after retaining the optimum cards and
redrawing."

                                 *****************

I am embarrassed to admit I do get lost in the above two paragraphs,
even if I do understand the underlying philosophy and could reproduce
the numbers in strategy charts with due patience.

....... I do grant you that points 42 and 43 of FAQ have me
mystified.

We spent quite a bit of ink discussing EV and ER when I was composing
the answers for #42 and #43 for the FAQ, and any suggestions for
improvement are welcome.

It would be helpful if you will specify what you don't understand and
what mystifies you. To assist you, I've broken the ER and EV answers
down into identifiable components.

#42 includes (1) a mathematical formula, and (2) a comment on EV
and ER usage.

#43 includes (1) a mathematical formula, (2) a one sentence general
definition of EV, and (3) a one sentence VP specific definition of EV.

What don't you understand, and do you have any improvements to suggest?

vpFREE Administrator

I would suggest adding a couple of examples.

Dick

> I have read the FAQs we are encouraged to read, and one part I do

not

> understand is that relating to ER and EV. This is the definition
> there:

                                 *****************

"42. What does Expected Return (ER) mean? - ER is a percentage
return figure and it equals [EV divided by Coin-in]. In video poker
circles, EV is sometimes used incorrectly as being interchangeable

with

ER.

43. What does Expected Value (EV) mean? - EV = [ER] X [Coin-
in]. EV is the sum of [all possible outcomes times the probability

of

the outcomes occurring]. The EV of a video poker hand is the average
value of all the wins attainable, after retaining the optimum cards

and

redrawing."

                                 *****************

> I am embarrassed to admit I do get lost in the above two

paragraphs,

> even if I do understand the underlying philosophy and could

reproduce

> the numbers in strategy charts with due patience.

> ....... I do grant you that points 42 and 43 of FAQ have me
> mystified.

We spent quite a bit of ink discussing EV and ER when I was

composing

the answers for #42 and #43 for the FAQ, and any suggestions for
improvement are welcome.

It would be helpful if you will specify what you don't understand

and

what mystifies you. To assist you, I've broken the ER and EV answers
down into identifiable components.

#42 includes (1) a mathematical formula, and (2) a comment on EV
and ER usage.

#43 includes (1) a mathematical formula, (2) a one sentence general
definition of EV, and (3) a one sentence VP specific definition of

EV.

What don't you understand, and do you have any improvements to

suggest?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vp_FREE" <vpFREE@C...> wrote:

On 3 Oct 2003 at 22:47, mubowor wrote:

vpFREE Administrator

vpFREE Administrator,

Now you put me to work, LOL.

I can't satisfy your last request of "improvements to suggest." The
reason is that since I don't understand your points 42 and 43,
whatever I suggest will reflect what I understand about the topics
therein discussed, and it might not be what you have in mind. It has
already been stated in another message that I have no idea what EV
and ER are. I will try to explain why I don't understand your
definitions and why I'm mystified.

In point 42 you have a formula that defines ER in terms of EV and
Coin-in. In point 25 you define Coin-in: "Coin-in equals the total
number of hands played times the amount played per hand." Thus, one
of these terms, EV or ER, depends on the number of hands played.
Point 42 does not state which.

In point 43 you also have a formula to define EV, but the formula
defines EV in terms of ER and Coin-in. This definition reminds me of
this dialogue:

-Who is Peter?
-The father of Joe.
-And who is Joe?
-The son of Peter.

There is nothing wrong in the statements "Peter is the father of Joe"
and "Joe is the son of Peter". One of the statements is redundant.
Something else is lacking, like, maybe, Joe is the fireman that lives
in the corner.

Is that missing link provided by the one sentence general definition
of EV? Well, I must confess that the definition of EV in 43 again
confuses me.

The first time I encountered the term EV as referred to VP was in
page 21 of Bob Dancer's booklet on Deuces Wild. The BD definition of
EV in VP has always made perfect sense to me and does not seem to
coincide with the definition stated in point 43.

Point 43, for example, talks about the EV of a video poker hand. Now,
Bob Dancer clearly states that all Video Poker hands have 32 Evs. Why
32? Because you can hold five cards one way; you can hold four cards
five ways; you can hold three cards ten ways; you can hold two cards
ten ways; you can hold one card five ways; and you can hold no cards
in only one way. Each of those holds has an EV, which is, as you
state in the next to the last sentence, "the sum of all possible
outcomes times the probability of the outcome occurring" in the
second deal. As I have counted above and I add here, a Video Poker
hand has 1+5+10+10+5+1=32 possible holds, thus 32 different EVs. In
perfect strategy, you hold the group of cards of a Video Poker hand
that has the highest EV.

I hope I have not been unclear myself. Regards.

E

> I have read the FAQs we are encouraged to read, and one part I do

not

> understand is that relating to ER and EV. This is the definition
> there:

                                 *****************

"42. What does Expected Return (ER) mean? - ER is a percentage
return figure and it equals [EV divided by Coin-in]. In video poker
circles, EV is sometimes used incorrectly as being interchangeable

with

ER.

43. What does Expected Value (EV) mean? - EV = [ER] X [Coin-
in]. EV is the sum of [all possible outcomes times the probability

of

the outcomes occurring]. The EV of a video poker hand is the average
value of all the wins attainable, after retaining the optimum cards

and

redrawing."

                                 *****************

> I am embarrassed to admit I do get lost in the above two

paragraphs,

> even if I do understand the underlying philosophy and could

reproduce

> the numbers in strategy charts with due patience.

> ....... I do grant you that points 42 and 43 of FAQ have me
> mystified.

We spent quite a bit of ink discussing EV and ER when I was

composing

the answers for #42 and #43 for the FAQ, and any suggestions for
improvement are welcome.

It would be helpful if you will specify what you don't understand

and

what mystifies you. To assist you, I've broken the ER and EV answers
down into identifiable components.

#42 includes (1) a mathematical formula, and (2) a comment on EV
and ER usage.

#43 includes (1) a mathematical formula, (2) a one sentence general
definition of EV, and (3) a one sentence VP specific definition of

EV.

What don't you understand, and do you have any improvements to

suggest?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vp_FREE" <vpFREE@C...> wrote:

On 3 Oct 2003 at 22:47, mubowor wrote:

vpFREE Administrator

I have responded to this message on FREEvpFREE.

You can read messages on FREEvpFREE without joining,
but must join in order to post

FREEvpFREE:

http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/freevpfree

<a href="http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/freevpfree">
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/freevpfree</a>

vpFREE Administrator

···

On 4 Oct 2003 at 13:33, mubowor wrote:

I can't satisfy your last request of "improvements to suggest." The
reason is that since I don't understand your points 42 and 43, whatever
I suggest will reflect what I understand about the topics therein
discussed, and it might not be what you have in mind. It has already
been stated in another message that I have no idea what EV and ER are. I
will try to explain why I don't understand your definitions and why I'm
mystified.

Thanks for your reply. I have gone to FREEvpFREE and read the reply
to my post on the FAQ definitions of ER and EV. None of the
objections I made to points 42 and 43 were addressed there, but since
I can lurk, I can still hope that someone will take each of my points
and answer them here or there, hopefully with examples, and then I
will understand what all tha is about there. Meanwhile, it is best I
don't post any more on any topics.

It seems a lot of people get offended and/or upset by some of my
posts. Belive it or not, this causes a lot of stress in me. Life is
too short to go to the Internet and find aggravation there. I can do
other things less unpleasant. I like playing video poker and talking
about it; but I like it because it is a pleasant hobby, not because
I'm trying to prove someone something on a point of honor or
whatever. Life in itself can be very unpleasant at times, to add to
it insults from people just because you enjoy the many aspects of
video poker.

E

> I can't satisfy your last request of "improvements to suggest."

The

> reason is that since I don't understand your points 42 and 43,

whatever

> I suggest will reflect what I understand about the topics therein
> discussed, and it might not be what you have in mind. It has

already

> been stated in another message that I have no idea what EV and ER

are. I

> will try to explain why I don't understand your definitions and

why I'm

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vp_FREE" <vpFREE@C...> wrote:

On 4 Oct 2003 at 13:33, mubowor wrote:
> mystified.

I have responded to this message on FREEvpFREE.

You can read messages on FREEvpFREE without joining,
but must join in order to post

FREEvpFREE:

http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/freevpfree

<a href="http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/freevpfree">
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/freevpfree</a>

vpFREE Administrator