vpFREE2 Forums

Ethics

#1

vegasvpplayer wrote:

If I recall the facts correctly, Frugal Video Poker incorporated
Tomski's intellectual property from Strategy Master without
compensation. Some might consider this stealing for profit and place
it a few notches above "trickery".

Yes, Tomski's technique for combining logically equivalent hands was used in Frugal VP, and also in Optimum VP.

Tomski offered the use of his reduction methods to both Jim Wolf (developer of FVP) and Yuri Sorkin (for OpVP), asking only for credit in the program documentation, because he had no plans to do any more software development himself.

No trickery or anything unethical was done by any of us. If you have OpVP you will find credit to Tomski in the About OpVP window.

Jean Scott is one of the most ethical people I know, and I try to do the same.

Dan

···

--
Dan Paymar
Author of best selling book, "Video Poker - Optimum Play"
Editor/Publisher of VP newsletter "Video Poker Times"
Developer of VP analysis/trainer software "Optimum Video Poker"
Visit my web site at www.OptimumPlay.com

"Chance favors the prepared mind." -- Louis Pasteur

#2

<<<Tomski offered the use of his reduction methods to both Jim Wolf
(developer of FVP) and Yuri Sorkin (for OpVP), asking only for credit
in the program documentation, because he had no plans to do any more
software development himself.>>>>

I was looking at my version of Frugal Video Poker and I am having
trouble finding the acknowledgment of Tomski's contribution.
Under "About...Special Thanks" in the "Help" section I found listed
Elliott Shapiro, Jean Scott and someone named 'Sickboy'. Is that the
nickname the modest Tomski requested used? I was able to find the
acknowledgements to Tomski in Bob Dancer's Winpoker. I am sorry I
don't yet own your program Dan.

···

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:10:36 -0600 Dan Paymar <Dan@OptimumPlay.com> writes:

#3

vegasvpplayer wrote: I was able to find the
acknowledgements to Tomski in Bob Dancer's Winpoker.

Yes you can (and it was in regards to speeding up the game analysis) ---
and it was put there by Dean Zamzow, not me. I suspect that whether
Tomski's name is acknowledged in FVP or not is a matter to address to
Jim Wolf, not Jean. It is inconceivable to me that Jim wanted to
acknowldege Tomski and Jean vetoed the idea. The most likely result of
your comments is a reply from Jim and/or Jean saying, "Thank you for
bringing it to our attention. We'll make sure to include Tomski's name
in the next version."

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#4

Dan Paymar wrote:

Tomski offered the use of his reduction methods to both Jim Wolf
(developer of FVP) and Yuri Sorkin (for OpVP), asking only for
credit in the program documentation, because he had no plans to do
any more software development himself.
<<

It is true that TomSki was gracious enough to offer a reduction
technique when I sent him an evaluation copy of the game. What is
not true and implied by Dan's comments is that I accepted any
alogrithms, and Dan knows this, as we had discussed it at a show. I
had already figured something out on my own and did not need it. No
algorithms changed hands. I'm sure TomSki would verify this if he
participated in this group, but he's probably too busy laughing at
this idiotic thread.

vegasvpplayer wrote:

If I recall the facts correctly, Frugal Video Poker incorporated
Tomski's intellectual property from Strategy Master without
compensation. Some might consider this stealing for profit and place
it a few notches above "trickery".
<<

bobdancer wrote:

The most likely result of your comments is a reply from Jim and/or
Jean saying, "Thank you for
bringing it to our attention. We'll make sure to include Tomski's
name in the next version."
<<

I am sure that Tomski and I create our charts completely
differently, and he would probably agree. These type of accusations
really make me weary. Mind you, I would not recreate the wheel if
given a way out, and credit would have been easily given, but my
program was too mature at the time of the offer, and the offer was
declined. I believe that the above writers and this topic belong in
the FreeVPFree area.

Jim Wolf

#5

Jim,

I also think it's important to understand the use of the
term "intellectual property". It implies a patent or copyright exists
to protect the property. I doubt that is the case here and I'm
somewhat curious as to the motives of the original poster.

Dick

Dan Paymar wrote:
>>
Tomski offered the use of his reduction methods to both Jim Wolf
(developer of FVP) and Yuri Sorkin (for OpVP), asking only for
credit in the program documentation, because he had no plans to do
any more software development himself.
<<

It is true that TomSki was gracious enough to offer a reduction
technique when I sent him an evaluation copy of the game. What is
not true and implied by Dan's comments is that I accepted any
alogrithms, and Dan knows this, as we had discussed it at a show. I
had already figured something out on my own and did not need it. No
algorithms changed hands. I'm sure TomSki would verify this if he
participated in this group, but he's probably too busy laughing at
this idiotic thread.

vegasvpplayer wrote:
>>
If I recall the facts correctly, Frugal Video Poker incorporated
Tomski's intellectual property from Strategy Master without
compensation. Some might consider this stealing for profit and

place

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "fvpwolf" <jimwolf@f...> wrote:

it a few notches above "trickery".
<<

bobdancer wrote:
>>
The most likely result of your comments is a reply from Jim and/or
Jean saying, "Thank you for
bringing it to our attention. We'll make sure to include Tomski's
name in the next version."
<<

I am sure that Tomski and I create our charts completely
differently, and he would probably agree. These type of accusations
really make me weary. Mind you, I would not recreate the wheel if
given a way out, and credit would have been easily given, but my
program was too mature at the time of the offer, and the offer was
declined. I believe that the above writers and this topic belong in
the FreeVPFree area.

Jim Wolf

#6

Jim Wolf posted: <<It is true that TomSki was gracious enough to offer a reduction technique when I sent him an evaluation copy of the game. What is not true and implied by Dan's comments is that I accepted any algorithms, and Dan knows this, as we had discussed it at a show. I
had already figured something out on my own and did not need it. No
algorithms changed hands. .........I am sure that Tomski and I created our charts completely differently, and he would probably agree... Mind you, I would not recreate the wheel if given a way out, and credit would have been easily given, but my program was too mature at the time of the offer, and the offer was declined.>>

Geesh - I am glad Jim helped me out here - I barely know the meaning of the word "algorithm" much less mess with one.

When you are in the public eye, especially in this age of the Internet, people who are jealous or just don't like you for one reason or another can spread falsehoods very easily. This is why it is always good to check the facts with the person involved before spreading rumors that can get out of hand.

I want to say that TomSki and I have always had a warm relationship. When I decided to give the FVP software program my "frugal" recommendation, I made contact with both him and Dean Zamzow, as a professional courtesy gesture. I had used and promoted both of their programs since their inception and appreciated their help immensely in my own play and giving me a valuable resource to recommend to others. I felt they deserved an advance notice that I was now promoting a new product that combined many of the useful functions of their products plus many new ones. TomSki has always been very supportive about FVP.

I appreciate those of you who posted in my "defense," but I have learned to be thick-skinned. People who know me well will judge me by what they know of my overall actions and behavior and won't be taken in by these occasional false accusations, thank goodness.

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards.
  NEW - Blackjack Strategy Cards +
              Updated Second Edition of
             "The Frugal Gambler."

#7

Agreed. This thread may be about a new program that will be
introduced "VERY LOUD".

You cannot patent statistical analysis, only the jargon used to
describe it. However, I do not pretend to understand all the
legalities involved.

Jim Wolf

Jim,

I also think it's important to understand the use of the
term "intellectual property". It implies a patent or copyright

exists

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mroejacks" <rgmustain@a...> wrote:

to protect the property. I doubt that is the case here and I'm
somewhat curious as to the motives of the original poster.

Dick

#8

Hmmm... I think I can guess.
Skip

fvpwolf wrote:

···

Agreed. This thread may be about a new program that will be introduced "VERY LOUD".

#9

Thymos_one asked how I calculated the percentage return of 8/5 Double
Jackpot using 8/5 Jacks or Better strategy using WinPoker and Excel.

1. Go to WinPoker and the Double Jackpot game. Click on
ANALYZE and then GAME and run the analysis. You should get 99.63%. Click
on "Copy to Clipboard"

2. On a blank Excel spreadsheet, put the cursor on space
A1 and click on CNTL V --- this will paste the WinPoker data to your
spreadsheet.

3. Return to WinPoker. Go to OPTIONS and then CHANGE PAY
TABLES and enter in a 8/5 Jacks or Better pay table. This will require
you to enter 25 (one coin) or 125 (5 coins) for each of the 4-of-a-kind
pay categories. Click on okay.

4. Go to ANALYZE and then GAME and run the analysis. If
you've done it correctly, it should show up as 97.30% --- which is the
return for 8/5 Jacks. What is important, though, is that you get
frequencies in each of the pay schedule categories if you are using
proper 8/5 Jacks strategy.

Copy this to your clipboard.

5. Returning to your Excel spreadsheet, paste (CNTL V)
on space G1.

6. In space M3, enter the following formula:
=(100*B3*I3)/(5*2598960)

7. Explaining the above formula, "100" is the number
used to get it into percentages. "B3" is the cell containing the 5-coin
return for the royal flush in 8/5 DJ. "I3" is the cell containing the
frequency of royal flushes when you are playing 8/5 Jacks."5" is the
number used to get it into single coins. "2598960" is the number of
unique 5-card combinations in a 52-card game. The answer, if you've done
all of this correctly, is 1.99+, which represents the return of the
royal flush using 8/5 Jacks strategy.

8. Copy M3 (CNTL C), and paste it (CNTL V) into cells
M4-M16. Sum these (using the e$B-te(B feature) and you should come out with
99.55%+.

Notice that this slightly underestimates the return because you're going
to be using common sense on dealt quads. In this game, AAAAK is going to
pay more than AAAA2 (which is the opposite of DDB), so if you're dealt
AAAAK you're going to hold all five cards and if you're dealt AAAA2,
you're going to throw away the deuce. In WinPoker Jacks or Better, on
dealt quads it holds all five cards. (It could equally well have chosen
to just hold four cards. It's a tie and Dean Zamzow had to pick one or
the other when he was programming.) Even if you otherwise use Jacks or
Better strategy, you'll hold the fifth card only if it's the right
kicker. Otherwise, you'll toss it.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#10

Thanks, since I have a copy of WinPoker this could be useful for
future reference. By the way you can divide by the sum of the
freqency column, so that you don't have to remember the exact number
of unique hands.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" wrote:

Thymos_one asked how I calculated the percentage return of 8/5 Double
Jackpot using 8/5 Jacks or Better strategy using WinPoker and Excel.

1. Go to WinPoker and the Double Jackpot game. Click on
ANALYZE and then GAME and run the analysis. You should get
99.63% ...

#11

I think that's the way we all used to do it before FVP appeared. I still have a lot spreadsheets for this kind of thing. (Need to clean those out one of these days).

Here's the method in FVP:
1. Select 8/5 Double Jackpot as the current machine. Select "Tweak Strategy Charts", then Select "Inherit Strategies From Another Game", then select 8/5 JB as the game you wish to inherit the strategy from. If you have created alternate strategies for the JB game, you can also select one of those, instead of the primary strategy. Of course with FVP, you would already have a strategy generated for the 8/5 Jackpot Bonus (and any variations of it you wished.) To analyze your new inherited strategy just click analyze and give it a label. I usually go with the obvious - "With JB 8/5" for instance (in this case). The analyze stats will show the original strategy as 99.6255 and the new strategy as 99.5517.
Skip

Bob Dancer wrote:

···

Thymos_one asked how I calculated the percentage return of 8/5 Double
Jackpot using 8/5 Jacks or Better strategy using WinPoker and Excel.

1. Go to WinPoker and the Double Jackpot game. Click on
ANALYZE and then GAME and run the analysis. You should get 99.63%. Click
on "Copy to Clipboard"

2. On a blank Excel spreadsheet, put the cursor on space
A1 and click on CNTL V --- this will paste the WinPoker data to your
spreadsheet.

3. Return to WinPoker. Go to OPTIONS and then CHANGE PAY
TABLES and enter in a 8/5 Jacks or Better pay table. This will require
you to enter 25 (one coin) or 125 (5 coins) for each of the 4-of-a-kind
pay categories. Click on okay.

4. Go to ANALYZE and then GAME and run the analysis. If
you've done it correctly, it should show up as 97.30% --- which is the
return for 8/5 Jacks. What is important, though, is that you get
frequencies in each of the pay schedule categories if you are using
proper 8/5 Jacks strategy.

Copy this to your clipboard.

5. Returning to your Excel spreadsheet, paste (CNTL V)
on space G1.

6. In space M3, enter the following formula:
=(100*B3*I3)/(5*2598960)

7. Explaining the above formula, "100" is the number
used to get it into percentages. "B3" is the cell containing the 5-coin
return for the royal flush in 8/5 DJ. "I3" is the cell containing the
frequency of royal flushes when you are playing 8/5 Jacks."5" is the
number used to get it into single coins. "2598960" is the number of
unique 5-card combinations in a 52-card game. The answer, if you've done
all of this correctly, is 1.99+, which represents the return of the
royal flush using 8/5 Jacks strategy.

8. Copy M3 (CNTL C), and paste it (CNTL V) into cells
M4-M16. Sum these (using the ∑ feature) and you should come out with
99.55%+.

Notice that this slightly underestimates the return because you're going
to be using common sense on dealt quads. In this game, AAAAK is going to
pay more than AAAA2 (which is the opposite of DDB), so if you're dealt
AAAAK you're going to hold all five cards and if you're dealt AAAA2,
you're going to throw away the deuce. In WinPoker Jacks or Better, on
dealt quads it holds all five cards. (It could equally well have chosen
to just hold four cards. It's a tie and Dean Zamzow had to pick one or
the other when he was programming.) Even if you otherwise use Jacks or
Better strategy, you'll hold the fifth card only if it's the right
kicker. Otherwise, you'll toss it.

--
Thanks!
Skip
http://www.vpinsider.com

#12

I over-reacted and now realize that this was a very cheap shot at Bob
Dancer. I apologize to Bob (who does damn good work), and to the
members of this forum.

Thanks,
Jim Wolf

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "fvpwolf" <jimwolf@f...> wrote:

Agreed. This thread may be about a new program that will be
introduced "VERY LOUD".

#13

apology accepted. . . and appreciated.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf
Of fvpwolf
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 6:27 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Ethics

I over-reacted and now realize that this was a very cheap shot at Bob
Dancer. I apologize to Bob (who does damn good work), and to the
members of this forum.

Thanks,
Jim Wolf

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "fvpwolf" <jimwolf@f...> wrote:

Agreed. This thread may be about a new program that will be
introduced "VERY LOUD".

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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