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I'm guessing Harry was quoting a trip bankroll type question
like, "how much can you lose trying to get diamond in a day?" which
is a significantly different question.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...>
wrote:

dunbar_dra wrote:
> > Here are some RoR and EV figs for the triple point days.
> >
> > Assuming no tips, no play errors, and no tax consequences, and
> > assuming no positive perks, someone who plays $1 JOB at 600
> > hands/hr only on triple point days would earn just under

$9/hr.

> > He or she would need a little more than a $71,000 bankroll to

have

> > a longterm RoR of 1%.
> > --Dunbar

markhaslem wrote:
> Hmm these bankroll requirements are much higher than other

postings

> have been. I remember Harry Porter saying that for $1 JOB you

would

> need a bankroll of $17,500 or something like that, I'd have to

look

> it up for the exact number. So why is paymar coming up with such
> large numbers?

Paymar/Dunbar -- "a rose by any other name ...", eh? (Just ribbing

you )

I don't think you saw a number of $17K from me in this context. For
any play such as this (with just .25% player advantage, or 1/8 of a
royal for every cycle played), you're going to need a hefty bankroll
cushion to see you through potential down cycles with 99% confidence
you won't bust.

$17K represents a cushion of just over 4 royals. Look for bankroll
requirements to be that thin only when you have a very strong game
and/or promotion, bringing the player edge to over 1% (and if the

game

is "streaky" like double bonus, even that isn't likely to cover it.

(FWIW, when I do cite a bankroll requirement it's likely that I
obtained the number from Dunbar's VP Risk Analyzer - available from

LVA.)

···

- H.

- Harry

Five wrote: that said i still wouldn't play $1 JoB with 0.75% cb on a
$17500 bankroll.

    This is a different subject than was originally posted. In at least
one post, Dunbar was referring to "cash in your pocket" when you visited
the casino. Five is referring to total bankroll --- which hopefully is a
lot more than "cash in your pocket."

  In my particular case, I only had $20K or so on me when I found
this particular $25 play. (I had access to a large line-of-credit next
door should I decided to go that route. I likely wouldn't go that route
as taking a marker might adversely affect my Harrah's daily average, and
the Horizon play was really small change compared to the Harrah's
offers.) I was planning on playing a few hours only. If I lost that, it
would not have been a big deal --- although Shirley still gets a bit
cranky at $20K losses. My total bankroll is well over 100 times that
large. My bankroll was larger a month ago even though I'm well ahead at
video poker during that period. The stock market, where most of my
bankroll lives in its spare time, has been down of late.

  The long term bankroll calculations (on Dunbar's Risk Analyzer
and on Video Poker for Winners --- which were developed independently
but come up with very similar numbers --- which is a statement to the
reliability of both products) presume you are going to be playing this
particular game forever and ever amen. The $17,500 figure for a $1 game
referred to this type of calculation. That was not the case here. I was
going to play maybe four hours. The short term calculations (as defined
on both products) let you enter a number of hands --- in my particular
case around 2,000 or 2,500 --- and see what the chances of going broke
with however much you have in your pocket.

  How close you need to pay attention to these figures depends on
how serious losing your cash on hand is to you. In my case, it didn't
matter very much.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

As Bob notes, there are two different kinds of bankroll
considerations. "Longterm" bankroll is how much money you would
need to play the game forever. For the $25 JOB with 3x points, you
would need a bankroll of $1,785,800 to keep your chance of going
broke to 1%. (That assumes no tips and no errors.) If you have a
smaller bankroll than that, and you make a habit of playing games
like $25 JOB with 0.75% cb, then your ROR is much higher than 1%.

A second bankroll issue is whether you have enough money to even sit
down and play for awhile. This is "session" or "trip" bankroll.
You don't need the whole $1,785,800 to play for 4 hours. For
example, Bob said he had around $20K with him. If he could get in
500 hands/hr, then a 20K bankroll would have a 99% chance of lasting
for 2 hours and an 89% chance of lasting 4 hours. (Had Bob hoped to
play for 10 hours, though, he would have had a 41% chance of going
home early!)

Here is another stat from 4 hours of $25 JOB (with a $20K session
bankroll):
1. The chance of losing more than $8000 is 36%
2. The chance of winning more than $8000 is 17%

It's sobering to note that even in this advantageous game, you have
twice as much chance of losing $8000+ as winning $8000+. Of
course, while you can't lose more than the $20K you start with, you
could get lucky and win $100K.

--Dunbar

For those with different longterm risk tolerance, here's the
relationship of risk-of-ruin to longterm bankroll for the $25 JOB
game with 3x 0.25% cashback:

% RoR, Bankroll
25%, 537,600
20%, 624,100
15%, 735,700
10%, 892,900
5%, 1,161,700
2%, 1,517,000
1%, 1,785,800
0.5%, 2,054,600
0.1%, 2,678,700
0.01%, 3,571,550

For a $5 game you would divide those longterm bankroll figs by 5.

Five wrote: that said i still wouldn't play $1 JoB with 0.75% cb

on a

$17500 bankroll.

    This is a different subject than was originally posted. In at

least

one post, Dunbar was referring to "cash in your pocket" when you

visited

the casino. Five is referring to total bankroll --- which

hopefully is a

lot more than "cash in your pocket."

  In my particular case, I only had $20K or so on me when I

found

this particular $25 play. (I had access to a large line-of-credit

next

door should I decided to go that route. I likely wouldn't go that

route

as taking a marker might adversely affect my Harrah's daily

average, and

the Horizon play was really small change compared to the Harrah's
offers.) I was planning on playing a few hours only. If I lost

that, it

would not have been a big deal --- although Shirley still gets a

bit

cranky at $20K losses. My total bankroll is well over 100 times

that

large. My bankroll was larger a month ago even though I'm well

ahead at

video poker during that period. The stock market, where most of my
bankroll lives in its spare time, has been down of late.

  The long term bankroll calculations (on Dunbar's Risk

Analyzer

and on Video Poker for Winners --- which were developed

independently

but come up with very similar numbers --- which is a statement to

the

reliability of both products) presume you are going to be playing

this

particular game forever and ever amen. The $17,500 figure for a $1

game

referred to this type of calculation. That was not the case here.

I was

going to play maybe four hours. The short term calculations (as

defined

on both products) let you enter a number of hands --- in my

particular

case around 2,000 or 2,500 --- and see what the chances of going

broke

with however much you have in your pocket.

  How close you need to pay attention to these figures depends

on

how serious losing your cash on hand is to you. In my case, it

didn't

matter very much.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video

poker

computer trainer ever invented, go

to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bdancer@...> wrote: