vpFREE2 Forums

El Cortez Barring - some thoughts

I see that some others have brought the tax consequences of
redeeming the cashback already...I drafted this a couple of hours
ago...so please forgive the redundancy reagrding tax impacts.

I was barred from the El Cortez for an entirely different reason
than vegasvpplayer. I later found out from a very reliable source
that mine was a result of their system showing that I pulled my
player's card out of the reader over 30 times in a short time
period. The El Cortez assumed that I was pulling the card when I was
dealt a pat hand, in an attempt to hide some of the larger wins from
their tracking system.

While I have done that practice in the past, but just on dealt quads
or higher, I was not doing it at the El Cortez. I was playing on a
multiple point day, they were going through a tracking system
conversion at the time and the triple points were not registering.
Also, there were gift cards or gas cards for payouts over $200 and
the slot personnel pulled the card to get your name and number to
put on the paperwork. The El Cortez assumed the reason was to hide
winnings, and this coupled with the fact that I only played there on
multiple point days, was enough for them to give me the boot.

In any event there are a number of lessons to be learned from
vegasvpplayer and my experiences:

Card Pulling
Ten or fifteen years ago, the players card tracking systems were not
sophisticated enough to keep separate counts on how often one pulled
his card. By pulling one's card on a dealt quad, you were able to
hide your winnings from the casino and, if you used year-end
statements from the casino as supporting documentation for your
gambling diary for the IRS, you were able to hide winnings from them
as well.

There was a promotion a few years ago at the Riviera, where you were
reimbursed for losses. I did not participate and I'm not sure of the
details, but by pulling the player's card with any dealt paying
hand, even a single pair, it did not register as a win in their
tracking system, and inflated the player's losses.

Today's player tracking systems are more technologically
sophisticated and the casinos are more aware of the "tricks of the
trade" used by advanced AP and VP players. The Palms just upgraded
their system so that now you cannot download your free play and pull
the card before playing any hands (to keep your coin-in per visit
average at a particular level). The message "carded session in
progress" now shows on the display.

Casino Comfort Levels
Back in my blackjack counting/playing days, you developed a sense
for the tolerance levels of the various casinos you played.
Some "joints" had a zero tolerance level for even a 1-2 spread…the
Barbary Coast comes to mind. Others tolerated an exact 1-2.9 spread.
The Frontier, back in the early 1990's when there was a labor
dispute allowed this spread. They dealt a single deck game with
double after split, stand on all 17s, so the game was slightly
positive off the top. If you tripled your bet, they would shuffle
up. So the counters would increase their bets to just under the
threshold amount. The pit knew what was going on, but management
simply wanted their business, given the picket line out front.

Hiding chips was a skill that needed to be learned and implemented.
A good "act" went a long way in keeping the welcome mat on the door.

Now the game is video poker and we have to learn tolerance levels
all over again. Obviously the mega resorts will have higher
tolerance levels, but their VP offerings are pretty limited.

The local properties have different tolerance levels. Remember about
a year ago when the Suncoast threw out some $5 players? How about
the Orleans with its intolerant Slot Director? The Fiestas are at
the other end of the spectrum.

Cash Back
On of the posters offered the opinion that there is no reason
to "stockpile" the cashback. Let me offer the following scenario…

There is a high limit player who adheres to the IRS regulations. He
(or she) faithfully keeps a contemporaneous diary of his play and
includes the cashback in his overall wins and losses. He doesn't
redeem the cashback until he sees how his year is going. Lets say
our hero is having a good year and is ahead $60,000 in mid-December
and has another $10,000 in accumulated cashback at various casinos.
Redeeming the $10K in cashback would increase his "income" by
$10,000 and the marginal tax rate on the additional $10,000 may be
around 33%. In effect, he'll be losing $3,333.

Next year may not go as well and redeeming the cashback then will
not trigger the same tax consequences.

Redeeming cashback for the small to medium players is usually a no-
brainer, but there may be other considerations to take into account.

Don the Dentist

Don, thanks for a very interesting and informative post.

I'm sure that I was the poster you referred to "who offered the
opinion on stockpiling cashback."

Of course, you are right. Being a (mostly) lower denom. rec player,
this tax ramification had not occured to me.

Thanks very much for educating me (and, I'm sure) many others today!

Regards,
~Babe~

···

=====================================================
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dds2124" <dds6@...> wrote:

..............Cash Back: One of the posters offered the opinion
that there is no reason to "stockpile" the cashback. Let me offer
the following scenario…

There is a high limit player who adheres to the IRS regulations. He
(or she) faithfully keeps a contemporaneous diary of his play and
includes the cashback in his overall wins and losses. He doesn't
redeem the cashback until he sees how his year is going. Lets say
our hero is having a good year and is ahead $60,000 in mid-December
and has another $10,000 in accumulated cashback at various casinos.
Redeeming the $10K in cashback would increase his "income" by
$10,000 and the marginal tax rate on the additional $10,000 may be
around 33%. In effect, he'll be losing $3,333.

Next year may not go as well and redeeming the cashback then will
not trigger the same tax consequences.

Redeeming cashback for the small to medium players is usually a no-
brainer, but there may be other considerations to take into account.

Don the Dentist

Hey Don

Ah. The Frontier. I thought even before the strike the BJ was good.
The way I remember it, management thought there were counters and
those who thought they were counters. They canceled each other out.
For me the Frontier was those 2 lonely FPDW $1 machines in the back
and the 6 coin progs. Frontier; home base just like home, small and
friendly. I'd get up early and secure one of the 2 FPDWs and play a
few hours in morning. One session on dollar game then was enough to
get full comp, at Frontier, for the rest of week. Would play a late
evening session too. Had all day to casino hop or just goof around
town.

Recently knew a guy who pulled his card every 15 or 20 plays. Not at
the Frontier. He played 2 $5 machines side by side. Used different
cards in addition to his own; friends, family etc. Got CB, rooms,
show tickets, gourmet eats, gifts etc. He was so bold as to improve
his cb by selling show tickets and rooms. He did on a regular
basis. He probably sold his gifts rather use the ever so popular
practice of regifting. One weekend this guy was not playing. Found
out house was going to prosecute him. Final outcome, he agreed to not
play there any more. If they would have prosecuted they may not have
convicted him but they could have caused him a lot of grief.

Those old card readers at the Frontier (Same at Stardust too) were
pretty smart even back then. Sometime, especially in morning, the
main computer would shut down and the card reader would appear to not
work. Name wouldn't come up on reader window but number of points
would run. Then when big computer came up again the points and player
name would be gathered from the memory of the little reader box at
each machine. The name information on the cards was not a magnetic
strip like today. Those cards had holes punched all over the card and
was read in what I believe they called key punch. Even then the
system was good. You COULD pull your card and change your win loss.
You only did that to have the house think you were a bigger fish. To
confirm loss, Frontier would let you make a sheet with your name on
it; a loss sheet. Every time you bought change they put you down for
a hundred or whatever you bought in coin. This was loss
documentation. Pretty neat. The Stardust used to give customers a
diary to record losses.

Today house can track how many dollars you put in, the time, how much
you won, how much you cashed and when. Had a ticket not credit up in
a machine. Machine just swallowed it. I was playing 5 or ten hands
on one machine, cash out, then run the ticket in machine next to it.
Play a few there then cycle back to first game. I did this about 10
times. Then, the lost ticket. The ticket was taken but didn't
register. Screen didn't change from when I cashed out before. Only
showed a cash out from before. Called help and the only thing this
guy would do is point to screen and explain to me, "You didn't lose
ticket, You cashed out." I told him I lost ticket. He kept pointing
to cash out amount and wouldn't call manager till I insisted. Finally
got a super and he called upstairs. I heard the whole conversation.
Up stairs knew when I started playing and how many times I changed
between machines. The didn't have a record of the ticket I lost as it
never registered. So the computer couldn't record it. It was late and
no one was available to open validator to get ticket out. After a
pause of 10 minutes the super walked me to the cage and issued me my
refund. I don't know why they did it that way, but I got my dough.

The lesson I learned is the computer knows all. I wouldn't be
surprised if they keep it for years.

Cheers....Jeep
.
.

I see that some others have brought the tax consequences of
redeeming the cashback already...I drafted this a couple of hours
ago...so please forgive the redundancy reagrding tax impacts.

I was barred from the El Cortez for an entirely different reason
than vegasvpplayer. I later found out from a very reliable source
that mine was a result of their system showing that I pulled my
player's card out of the reader over 30 times in a short time
period. The El Cortez assumed that I was pulling the card when I

was

dealt a pat hand, in an attempt to hide some of the larger wins

from

their tracking system.

While I have done that practice in the past, but just on dealt

quads

or higher, I was not doing it at the El Cortez. I was playing on a
multiple point day, they were going through a tracking system
conversion at the time and the triple points were not registering.
Also, there were gift cards or gas cards for payouts over $200 and
the slot personnel pulled the card to get your name and number to
put on the paperwork. The El Cortez assumed the reason was to hide
winnings, and this coupled with the fact that I only played there

on

multiple point days, was enough for them to give me the boot.

In any event there are a number of lessons to be learned from
vegasvpplayer and my experiences:

Card Pulling
Ten or fifteen years ago, the players card tracking systems were

not

sophisticated enough to keep separate counts on how often one

pulled

his card. By pulling one's card on a dealt quad, you were able to
hide your winnings from the casino and, if you used year-end
statements from the casino as supporting documentation for your
gambling diary for the IRS, you were able to hide winnings from

them

as well.

There was a promotion a few years ago at the Riviera, where you

were

reimbursed for losses. I did not participate and I'm not sure of

the

details, but by pulling the player's card with any dealt paying
hand, even a single pair, it did not register as a win in their
tracking system, and inflated the player's losses.

Today's player tracking systems are more technologically
sophisticated and the casinos are more aware of the "tricks of the
trade" used by advanced AP and VP players. The Palms just upgraded
their system so that now you cannot download your free play and

pull

the card before playing any hands (to keep your coin-in per visit
average at a particular level). The message "carded session in
progress" now shows on the display.

Casino Comfort Levels
Back in my blackjack counting/playing days, you developed a sense
for the tolerance levels of the various casinos you played.
Some "joints" had a zero tolerance level for even a 1-2 spread…the
Barbary Coast comes to mind. Others tolerated an exact 1-2.9

spread.

The Frontier, back in the early 1990's when there was a labor
dispute allowed this spread. They dealt a single deck game with
double after split, stand on all 17s, so the game was slightly
positive off the top. If you tripled your bet, they would shuffle
up. So the counters would increase their bets to just under the
threshold amount. The pit knew what was going on, but management
simply wanted their business, given the picket line out front.

Hiding chips was a skill that needed to be learned and implemented.
A good "act" went a long way in keeping the welcome mat on the door.

Now the game is video poker and we have to learn tolerance levels
all over again. Obviously the mega resorts will have higher
tolerance levels, but their VP offerings are pretty limited.

The local properties have different tolerance levels. Remember

about

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dds2124" <dds6@...> wrote:

a year ago when the Suncoast threw out some $5 players? How about
the Orleans with its intolerant Slot Director? The Fiestas are at
the other end of the spectrum.

Cash Back
On of the posters offered the opinion that there is no reason
to "stockpile" the cashback. Let me offer the following scenario…

There is a high limit player who adheres to the IRS regulations. He
(or she) faithfully keeps a contemporaneous diary of his play and
includes the cashback in his overall wins and losses. He doesn't
redeem the cashback until he sees how his year is going. Lets say
our hero is having a good year and is ahead $60,000 in mid-December
and has another $10,000 in accumulated cashback at various casinos.
Redeeming the $10K in cashback would increase his "income" by
$10,000 and the marginal tax rate on the additional $10,000 may be
around 33%. In effect, he'll be losing $3,333.

Next year may not go as well and redeeming the cashback then will
not trigger the same tax consequences.

Redeeming cashback for the small to medium players is usually a no-
brainer, but there may be other considerations to take into account.

Don the Dentist