vpFREE2 Forums

DTUW

#1

DISCLAIMER

1. I am not a teacher.
2. I am an amateur mathematician at best. If I make any math
mistakes then I apologize beforehand and would appreciate them being
pointed out. I would rather be humbled than to continue to be wrong.

                             DTUW

Draw Till U Win is/was a jacks or better game. It's 6/5 double Bonus
(which means the straight pays only 4). Now that's a pretty crappy
payscale, maybe 92%. But, and that's a big but, any time you wind up
with a non-paying 4-card royal or non-paying 4-card straight flush,
open-ended or inside, you get to "draw until u win." If, after the
draw, you wind up with a hand like 5h-6h-7h-8h-3c you get to throw
away the 3 and draw one card at a time until you hit a pay. But if
your final hand was 5h-6h-7h-8h-9c you would not get to draw because
it is a paying hand. Likewise for 4-card royals. If your final hand
is Ac-Kc-Qc-Tc-7d you get to draw until you win, but if your final
hand is Ac-Kc-Qc-Tc-7c the hand is over.

But you can, and should, break a hand if it is on the initial deal.
If you are dealt 4d-5d-6d-7d-8c you wouldn't break this hand in
normal 6/5 DB but in DTUW you would be on a stone cold freeroll
because the worst hand you can come back with is a straight. There
are only 14 paycards in the remaining 47: 5 straight cards, 7 flush
cards, 2 straight flush cards. You should be getting an idea of how
valuable these draws are by now. In normal 6/5 DB the ER of the SF
draw would be about 3.3, so you wouldn't break the hand because the
straight pays 4. But in DTUW the ER is up around 11. In either game
the hand would return the same amount of bets: 5 straight cards
return 20 bets, 7 flush cards return 35 bets, 2 SF cards return 100
bets. The difference is in the cycle. In normal 6/5 DB there would
be 47 possible outcomes, in DTUW there are only 14 possible
outcomes. 155 bets divided by 47 gives an ER of about 3.3, 155 bets
divided by 14 gives an ER of 11.

So the effect of the DTUW feature is RF cards and SF cards gain huge
value and move way up in the strategy chart. RF 1's, RF 2's, RF 3's,
RF 4's, SF 2's, SF 3's, SF 4's all gain huge value.

If you are dealt As-Ks-Qs-Ts-7d at 6/5 DB the ER of the hand is: 1 RF
card returns 800 bets, 8 FL cards return 40 bets, 3 ST cards return
12 bets, 9HP cards return 9 bets which totals to 861 bets divided by
the cycle(47) for an ER of about 18.3. But in DTUW, since you get to
draw until you win, the cycle is only 21 (The total number of
paycards) 861 bets divided by 21 gives an ER of about 41. Are you
getting the picture?

But what if you were dealt As-Ks-Qs-Ts-7s? I substituted the 7s for
the 7d. In either game you are going to make the draw, but at 6/5 DB
that 7 would be a penalty. The ER would be slightly less because
there is one less flush for you to make. In DTUW the 7s helps you
tremendously because it shortens the cycle on the draw. Instead of
21 paycards there are now only 20. 856 bets divided by 20 gives an
ER of around 42.8, up from the 41 it would be if the 7 were offsuit.

More later....

#2

Mickey wrote:

DISCLAIMER

1. I am not a teacher.
2. I am an amateur mathematician at best. If I make any math
mistakes then I apologize beforehand and would appreciate them being
pointed out. I would rather be humbled than to continue to be wrong.

  Your disclaimer is not needed. Your explanation was useful and
included relevant examples. You ARE a teacher. Being a teacher is not so
much what you are paid to do but what you have the ability to do. You
have the ability.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

#3

But if sheer number of references are any indication, a graduate summa
cum laude with a degree in mucus discharge of North American ruminant
animals... Doctoral dissertation on the Moose.

Wow... That is one interesting game.

Chandler

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

DISCLAIMER

1. I am not a teacher.
2. I am an amateur mathematician at best.

#4

DISCLAIMER

1. I am not a teacher.
2. I am an amateur mathematician at best. If I make any math
mistakes then I apologize beforehand and would appreciate them being
pointed out. I would rather be humbled than to continue to be wrong.

                             DTUW

Draw Till U Win is/was a jacks or better game. It's 6/5 double Bonus (which
means the straight pays only 4). Now that's a pretty crappy
payscale, maybe 92%. But, and that's a big but, any time you wind up
with a non-paying 4-card royal or non-paying 4-card straight flush,
open-ended or inside, you get to "draw until u win." If, after the
draw, you wind up with a hand like 5h-6h-7h-8h-3c you get to throw
away the 3 and draw one card at a time until you hit a pay. But if
your final hand was 5h-6h-7h-8h-9c you would not get to draw because
it is a paying hand. Likewise for 4-card royals. If your final hand
is Ac-Kc-Qc-Tc-7d you get to draw until you win, but if your final
hand is Ac-Kc-Qc-Tc-7c the hand is over.

But you can, and should, break a hand if it is on the initial deal.
If you are dealt 4d-5d-6d-7d-8c you wouldn't break this hand in
normal 6/5 DB but in DTUW you would be on a stone cold freeroll
because the worst hand you can come back with is a straight. There
are only 14 paycards in the remaining 47: 5 straight cards, 7 flush
cards, 2 straight flush cards. You should be getting an idea of how
valuable these draws are by now. In normal 6/5 DB the ER of the SF
draw would be about 3.3, so you wouldn't break the hand because the
straight pays 4. But in DTUW the ER is up around 11. In either game
the hand would return the same amount of bets: 5 straight cards
return 20 bets, 7 flush cards return 35 bets, 2 SF cards return 100
bets. The difference is in the cycle. In normal 6/5 DB there would
be 47 possible outcomes, in DTUW there are only 14 possible
outcomes. 155 bets divided by 47 gives an ER of about 3.3, 155 bets
divided by 14 gives an ER of 11.

So the effect of the DTUW feature is RF cards and SF cards gain huge
value and move way up in the strategy chart. RF 1's, RF 2's, RF 3's,
RF 4's, SF 2's, SF 3's, SF 4's all gain huge value.

If you are dealt As-Ks-Qs-Ts-7d at 6/5 DB the ER of the hand is: 1 RF
card returns 800 bets, 8 FL cards return 40 bets, 3 ST cards return
12 bets, 9HP cards return 9 bets which totals to 861 bets divided by
the cycle(47) for an ER of about 18.3. But in DTUW, since you get to
draw until you win, the cycle is only 21 (The total number of
paycards) 861 bets divided by 21 gives an ER of about 41. Are you
getting the picture?

But what if you were dealt As-Ks-Qs-Ts-7s? I substituted the 7s for
the 7d. In either game you are going to make the draw, but at 6/5 DB
that 7 would be a penalty. The ER would be slightly less because
there is one less flush for you to make. In DTUW the 7s helps you
tremendously because it shortens the cycle on the draw. Instead of
21 paycards there are now only 20. 856 bets divided by 20 gives an
ER of around 42.8, up from the 41 it would be if the 7 were offsuit.

More later....

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
mickeycrimm
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 9:58 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] DTUW

#5

Mickey,

I love your posts. They are very down to earth and straight forward.
Non-pretnetious and straight-forward good information. Of all the posters on
VPFree, you are by far my favorite. Please stick around and keep posting. I
love your stories.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
mickeycrimm
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 9:58 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] DTUW

DISCLAIMER

1. I am not a teacher.
2. I am an amateur mathematician at best. If I make any math
mistakes then I apologize beforehand and would appreciate them being
pointed out. I would rather be humbled than to continue to be wrong.

                             DTUW

Draw Till U Win is/was a jacks or better game. It's 6/5 double Bonus (which
means the straight pays only 4). Now that's a pretty crappy
payscale, maybe 92%. But, and that's a big but, any time you wind up
with a non-paying 4-card royal or non-paying 4-card straight flush,
open-ended or inside, you get to "draw until u win." If, after the
draw, you wind up with a hand like 5h-6h-7h-8h-3c you get to throw
away the 3 and draw one card at a time until you hit a pay. But if
your final hand was 5h-6h-7h-8h-9c you would not get to draw because
it is a paying hand. Likewise for 4-card royals. If your final hand
is Ac-Kc-Qc-Tc-7d you get to draw until you win, but if your final
hand is Ac-Kc-Qc-Tc-7c the hand is over.

But you can, and should, break a hand if it is on the initial deal.
If you are dealt 4d-5d-6d-7d-8c you wouldn't break this hand in
normal 6/5 DB but in DTUW you would be on a stone cold freeroll
because the worst hand you can come back with is a straight. There
are only 14 paycards in the remaining 47: 5 straight cards, 7 flush
cards, 2 straight flush cards. You should be getting an idea of how
valuable these draws are by now. In normal 6/5 DB the ER of the SF
draw would be about 3.3, so you wouldn't break the hand because the
straight pays 4. But in DTUW the ER is up around 11. In either game
the hand would return the same amount of bets: 5 straight cards
return 20 bets, 7 flush cards return 35 bets, 2 SF cards return 100
bets. The difference is in the cycle. In normal 6/5 DB there would
be 47 possible outcomes, in DTUW there are only 14 possible
outcomes. 155 bets divided by 47 gives an ER of about 3.3, 155 bets
divided by 14 gives an ER of 11.

So the effect of the DTUW feature is RF cards and SF cards gain huge
value and move way up in the strategy chart. RF 1's, RF 2's, RF 3's,
RF 4's, SF 2's, SF 3's, SF 4's all gain huge value.

If you are dealt As-Ks-Qs-Ts-7d at 6/5 DB the ER of the hand is: 1 RF
card returns 800 bets, 8 FL cards return 40 bets, 3 ST cards return
12 bets, 9HP cards return 9 bets which totals to 861 bets divided by
the cycle(47) for an ER of about 18.3. But in DTUW, since you get to
draw until you win, the cycle is only 21 (The total number of
paycards) 861 bets divided by 21 gives an ER of about 41. Are you
getting the picture?

But what if you were dealt As-Ks-Qs-Ts-7s? I substituted the 7s for
the 7d. In either game you are going to make the draw, but at 6/5 DB
that 7 would be a penalty. The ER would be slightly less because
there is one less flush for you to make. In DTUW the 7s helps you
tremendously because it shortens the cycle on the draw. Instead of
21 paycards there are now only 20. 856 bets divided by 20 gives an
ER of around 42.8, up from the 41 it would be if the 7 were offsuit.

More later....

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#6

Thanx, Bob, and thanx Tony and Chandler for the compliments.

Back in 2002 when I discovered DTUW I was still computer illierate
(still am, just know enough to get by) and had yet to buy my first
computer. A close friend stayed on my case until finally sometime in
the winter of 2002/2003 I broke down and bought a notebook. So befoe
then for VP strategies I relied heavily on Paymar/Dancer published
material....and I relied heavily on myself.

I had been studying and practicing combinatorial math for several
years. It was no easy feat for a high school dropout that never even
took Algebra. I was hitting the libraries for Algebra books but just
couldn't get by the code language of math. I had no idea what all
those n's and y's and backets and exclamation points meant. I
couldn't crack it and had no one around to explain it to me. But I
kept trying.

Then one day I grabbed a book off the shelf called "Scarne's Guide to
Modern Poker." In Chapter Ten "The Mathematics of Poker" Scarne
wrote the equations all the way out; 52x51x50....3x2x1....I undertood
exactly what it meant....and the implications. I ran the book
straight to the copying machine. It opened up a whole new world to
me.

I continued to study and practice with a calculator. I continued to
read Frome, Dancer, Paymar, a few math head Cardplayer columnists
over the years, and trying to pick up every math trick they had in
their arsenal.

The person that I read these days is Richard Burke at
Pokerplayernewspaper.com. He's a low limit holdem player but his
math also applies to VP. But the best little trick I learned from
him is factoring in the rake while determing if a particular holdem
hand shows a profit (not needed for a pair of Aces but how 'bout that
98suited?).

So when DTUW came along I had some tools to try and solve the puzzle
of the game.

At my very first session of DTUW I had no strategy. But I had to
play to see what was going on in the game in order to try to analyze
it. I don't recall if I made any straight flushes in that first
session but I remember vividly the final hand of the session: I held
the Ace of Hearts and caught the KQT of Hearts making a non-paying
RF4. The Draw Till U Win feature kicked in (the machine does an
autohold on the royal cards)and I drew one card at a time. I caught
maybe 5 or 6 nonpaying cards then BOOM!! Out jumped the Jack of
Hearts!

The machine locked up for the handpay. I leaned back in the chair.
The little guy on my shoulder said "Son, I think you are going to
like this game."

I got paid, cashed out and walked out the door thinking "How in the
hell am I gonna calculate the strategy to this game? 6/5 DB would be
easy enough,but with that DTUW feature? Think, son, think."

Next....Calculating the strategy Good Luck.

#7

Son you did good. Or is it you did well. Anyway, nice post.

Mickey, you can truely say you paid your dues.

Cheers...Jeep
.
.
.

Thanx, Bob, and thanx Tony and Chandler for the compliments.

Back in 2002 when I discovered DTUW I was still computer illierate
(still am, just know enough to get by) and had yet to buy my first
computer. A close friend stayed on my case until finally sometime

in

the winter of 2002/2003 I broke down and bought a notebook. So

befoe

then for VP strategies I relied heavily on Paymar/Dancer published
material....and I relied heavily on myself.

I had been studying and practicing combinatorial math for several
years. It was no easy feat for a high school dropout that never

even

took Algebra. I was hitting the libraries for Algebra books but

just

couldn't get by the code language of math. I had no idea what all
those n's and y's and backets and exclamation points meant. I
couldn't crack it and had no one around to explain it to me. But

I

kept trying.

Then one day I grabbed a book off the shelf called "Scarne's Guide

to

Modern Poker." In Chapter Ten "The Mathematics of Poker" Scarne
wrote the equations all the way out; 52x51x50....3x2x1....I

undertood

exactly what it meant....and the implications. I ran the book
straight to the copying machine. It opened up a whole new world

to

me.

I continued to study and practice with a calculator. I continued

to

read Frome, Dancer, Paymar, a few math head Cardplayer columnists
over the years, and trying to pick up every math trick they had in
their arsenal.

The person that I read these days is Richard Burke at
Pokerplayernewspaper.com. He's a low limit holdem player but his
math also applies to VP. But the best little trick I learned from
him is factoring in the rake while determing if a particular

holdem

hand shows a profit (not needed for a pair of Aces but how 'bout

that

98suited?).

So when DTUW came along I had some tools to try and solve the

puzzle

of the game.

At my very first session of DTUW I had no strategy. But I had to
play to see what was going on in the game in order to try to

analyze

it. I don't recall if I made any straight flushes in that first
session but I remember vividly the final hand of the session: I

held

the Ace of Hearts and caught the KQT of Hearts making a non-paying
RF4. The Draw Till U Win feature kicked in (the machine does an
autohold on the royal cards)and I drew one card at a time. I

caught

maybe 5 or 6 nonpaying cards then BOOM!! Out jumped the Jack of
Hearts!

The machine locked up for the handpay. I leaned back in the

chair.

The little guy on my shoulder said "Son, I think you are going to
like this game."

I got paid, cashed out and walked out the door thinking "How in

the

hell am I gonna calculate the strategy to this game? 6/5 DB would

be

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

easy enough,but with that DTUW feature? Think, son, think."

Next....Calculating the strategy Good Luck.