<<<<<As I remember from prior posts--double up is 0 EV. However, does it
usually
count towards CB and/or comps?>>>>>>>>
Unfortunately it never pays CB or comps.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 23:23:37 EDT richardrick7@aol.com writes:
johnfiske@juno.com wrote:
<<<<<As I remember from prior posts--double up is 0 EV. However, does it
usually
count towards CB and/or comps?>>>>>>>>Unfortunately it never pays CB or comps.
It slows your play without affecting your long-term ER or your CB or comp _points_. However, if you are in a situation where some comp is based, at least in part, on the length of _time_ that you've been playing -- such as getting comped a buffet at some of the casinos in Tunica -- then it can be slightly beneficial to a recreational player. But the only time I use it is when I just want to have some fun.
Cheers.
Bill Velek
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 23:23:37 EDT richardrick7@aol.com writes:
<<<<<As I remember from prior posts--double up is 0 EV. However,
does it
usually
count towards CB and/or comps?>>>>>>>>Unfortunately it never pays CB or comps.
Actually, it does contribute to earning cb and/or comps at those few
casinos which run their count on a coin-out system (such as Coast
properties) on any double up bets which you win.
Pete
paisonvp wrote:
> <<<<<As I remember from prior posts--double up is 0 EV. However,
does it
> usually
> count towards CB and/or comps?>>>>>>>>
>
> Unfortunately it never pays CB or comps.Actually, it does contribute to earning cb and/or comps at those few
casinos which run their count on a coin-out system (such as Coast
properties) on any double up bets which you win.
If that is just the normal coin-out system as opposed to a coin-in system, then I'm afraid that I must respectfully disagree with you. Because doubling does absolutely nothing to change the ER of the game, and on average you win half of the time and lose half of the time, the next effect is identical -- your coin-out amount is the same.
Cheers.
Bill Velek
paisonvp wrote:
>
> > <<<<<As I remember from prior posts--double up is 0 EV.
However,
> does it
> > usually
> > count towards CB and/or comps?>>>>>>>>
> >
> > Unfortunately it never pays CB or comps.
>
> Actually, it does contribute to earning cb and/or comps at those
few
> casinos which run their count on a coin-out system (such as Coast
> properties) on any double up bets which you win.If that is just the normal coin-out system as opposed to a coin-in
system, then I'm afraid that I must respectfully disagree with
you.
Because doubling does absolutely nothing to change the ER of the
game,
and on average you win half of the time and lose half of the time,
the
next effect is identical -- your coin-out amount is the same.
You've changed the question to which I responded. The post above
claims that doubling up "never pays CB or comps." That statement is
incorrect. At coin out casinos, winning double up hands do, in
simple fact, result in the player earning CB and/or comps for that
hand. I did not respond to the question about whether this fact
would change the game's ER. That question was not asked.
Pete
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:
paisonvp wrote:
> paisonvp wrote:
>
> >
> > > <<<<<As I remember from prior posts--double up is 0 EV. However,
> > does it
> > > usually
> > > count towards CB and/or comps?>>>>>>>>
> > >
> > > Unfortunately it never pays CB or comps.
> >
> > Actually, it does contribute to earning cb and/or comps at those
few
> > casinos which run their count on a coin-out system (such as Coast
> > properties) on any double up bets which you win.
>
> If that is just the normal coin-out system as opposed to a coin-in
> system, then I'm afraid that I must respectfully disagree with
you. > Because doubling does absolutely nothing to change the ER of the
game,
> and on average you win half of the time and lose half of the time,
the
> next effect is identical -- your coin-out amount is the same.You've changed the question to which I responded. The post above
claims that doubling up "never pays CB or comps." That statement is
incorrect. At coin out casinos, winning double up hands do, in
simple fact, result in the player earning CB and/or comps for that
hand. I did not respond to the question about whether this fact
would change the game's ER. That question was not asked.
Pete, since you have also posted this here, I am going to post my recent e-mail reply to you because it also answers this; essentially, it seemed to me, unless I misunderstood, that you were claiming that if you win and then double-up, that
1. If you lose the double-up, you will at least still get whatever CB your intiial win earned; and
2. If you win the double-up, you will get twice the CB (the creidts for the initial win plus the credits for the win on the double-up).
I don't know because I've never played in a casino that did it like that, but if that is true, then of course the correct thing is to ALWAYS double-up -- even if you hit the Royal Flush. But if that is wrong, and you collect no coin-out credits if you lose the double-up and double the coin-out credits if you win the double-up, then I stand by what I said earlier, and I don't know what your disagreement is. At any rate, thank you again for the very polite and courteous email.
Cheers.
Bill Velek
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:
Bill,
Pete's correct in what he asserts. At a coin out casino, cashback is
based upon physical coin-out. To the extent that a double-up
increases coin-out, cashback is increased. If you lose a double-up,
cashback that would otherwise accrue on the prior win is likewise
decreased. The effect on total expected cashback of doubling negates
out to a zero. Nonetheless, Pete was correct -- a win on a double
increases your cashback.
- Harry
Bill Velek wrote:
Pete, since you have also posted this here, I am going to post my
recent e-mail reply to you because it also answers this;
essentially, it seemed to me, unless I misunderstood, that you were
claiming that if you win and then double-up, that
1. If you lose the double-up, you will at least still get whatever
CB your intiial win earned; and
2. If you win the double-up, you will get twice the CB (the creidts
for the initial win plus the credits for the win on the double-up).I don't know because I've never played in a casino that did it like
that, but if that is true, then of course the correct thing is to
ALWAYS double-up -- even if you hit the Royal Flush. But if that is
wrong, and you collect no coin-out credits if you lose the double-up
and double the coin-out credits if you win the double-up, then I
stand by what I said earlier, and I don't know what your
disagreement is. At any rate, thank you again for the very polite
and courteous email.
paisonvp wrote:
>
> > <<<<However,
> does it
> > usually
> > count towards CB and/or comps?>>>>>>>>
> >
> > Unfortunately it never pays CB or comps.
>
> Actually, it does contribute to earning cb and/or comps at those
few
> casinos which run their count on a coin-out system (such as Coast
> properties) on any double up bets which you win.If that is just the normal coin-out system as opposed to a coin-in
system, then I'm afraid that I must respectfully disagree with
you.
Because doubling does absolutely nothing to change the ER of the
game,
and on average you win half of the time and lose half of the time,
the
next effect is identical -- your coin-out amount is the same.
You've changed the question to which I responded. The post above
claims that doubling up "never pays CB or comps." That statement is
incorrect. At coin out casinos, winning double up hands do, in
simple fact, result in the player earning CB and/or comps for that
hand. I did not respond to the question about whether this fact
would change the game's ER. That question was not asked.
Pete
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paisonvp <paison@iclub.org> wrote:--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek wrote:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Caroline Wolfe wrote:
paisonvp <paison@iclub.org> wrote:--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek wrote:
> paisonvp wrote:
>
> >
> > > <<<<However,
> > does it
> > > usually
> > > count towards CB and/or comps?>>>>>>>>
> > >
> > > Unfortunately it never pays CB or comps.
> >
> > Actually, it does contribute to earning cb and/or comps at those
few
> > casinos which run their count on a coin-out system (such as Coast
> > properties) on any double up bets which you win.
>
> If that is just the normal coin-out system as opposed to a coin-in
> system, then I'm afraid that I must respectfully disagree with
you.
> Because doubling does absolutely nothing to change the ER of the
game,
> and on average you win half of the time and lose half of the time,
the
> next effect is identical -- your coin-out amount is the same.You've changed the question to which I responded. The post above
claims that doubling up "never pays CB or comps." That statement is
incorrect. At coin out casinos, winning double up hands do, in
simple fact, result in the player earning CB and/or comps for that
hand. I did not respond to the question about whether this fact
would change the game's ER. That question was not asked.
I merely didn't take the next step to connect ER to CB, because I didn't really think it was necessary; I wasn't trying to mislead anyone, and I'm sorry you seem to feel that I somehow twisted things around. Let me explain it like this: Coin-Out CB is directly connected to what you win, which I will call ACTUAL RETURN (AR) as opposed to ER. If the short term, if you are especially lucky, your AR might substantially exceed ER, and in that event your CB increases accordingly; likewise, if your are especially unlucky or inaccurate in your play, your AR might be nothing at all, and in that event your CB decreases to zero. However, if you employ mathematically correct strategy for max-ER, then in the long term your winnings should be exactly equal to ER, and your CB is based exactly on that. Therefore, no matter whether you double-up or not, _IF_ ER remains unchanged, then guess what ... your CB remains unchanged too. Therefore, when I said that ER isn't affected by the double-up feature, and didn't explain further ... I assumed that folks would understand the connection.
Now, you and Harry Porter has indicated to me that, in fact, ER _is_ slightly altered by using double-up whenever CB is based on coin-in. I must admit that I am not familiar with coin-out CB and haven't had occasion to really consider that ... and I don't have the time to really think about it right now ... and being as how I have considerable regard for Harry's math abilities, I will take that at face value. That being the case, based on my above explanation, it logically follows that if using double-up increases ER, then naturally any CB that is based on ER must increase as well. And if ER decreases by using double-up, that naturally any CB that is tied directly to ER must also decrease.
I hope that this clears up any misunderstandings that I might have caused -- both in regard to my math answer, and in regard to how I responded to your post.
Thanks, and good luck to all.
Bill Velek
Small correction needed. Sorry. See below.
Bill Velek wrote:
snip
Now, you and Harry Porter has indicated to me that, in fact, ER _is_
slightly altered by using double-up whenever CB is based on coin-in.
That should say: "... whenever CB is based on coin-OUT" ... rather than 'coin-IN'.
Cheers.
Bill Velek
Bill Velek wrote:
Now, you and Harry Porter has indicated to me that, in fact, ER _is_
slightly altered by using double-up whenever CB is based on coin-in.
Bill,
Neither Pete nor I suggested this. We've noted that cashback is
affected by the results of a double, but I specifically indicated that
expected cashback (vs. actual) is not changed by doubling. Doubling
is still a breakeven proposition and is not expected to alter cashback
(akin to expected return and actual return).
In any case, let's not belabor this further. I'm sure that's the
farthest thing from what Pete had in mind when he made his incidental
comment.
- Harry