vpFREE2 Forums

Double Pay Poker: Computing the Return

#1

<<<<<<<Since WinPoker and FrugalVP can't
be used (can they?) to compute the return of the original deal, it
appears to be impossible to compute the overall return.>>>>>>>>

Someone a lot smarter than me once pointed out that you can determine
original deal frequency for any game by simply setting all paytable
values to zero. Since you would than have no incentive to not hold all
cards the displayed frequencies (at least in WinPoker) are those of the
initial deal. I think you can then determine return by multiply
frequencies by the actual paytable.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 19:37:12 -0000 "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@yahoo.com> writes:

#2

Yes, you can obtain the number of winning hands for each hand on the
intiial deal by setting all WinPoker values to zero (I have never tried
it with Frugal, but I presume it will work the same). But before we
jump to an analysis of that game, with which I am not familiar, I have a
couple of questions.

First, does the game pay for _ALL_ hands that are dealt on the initial
deal, ... and
second, does it pay a second time (after the 'draw') even if the hand is
not improved?

In other words, if I get a pair of Jacks on the deal and keep them, and
then after the redraw still end up with only a pair of Jacks, do I
collect 1 betting unit after the deal and _another_ betting unit after
the draw? ... for a total of 2 for Jacks+?

That seems way too good to be true, but if so, if you will post the full
pay table I'll give you the total ER.

Cheers.

Bill Velek

johnfiske@juno.com wrote:

···

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 19:37:12 -0000 "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@yahoo.com> > writes:
<<<<<<<Since WinPoker and FrugalVP can't
be used (can they?) to compute the return of the original deal, it
appears to be impossible to compute the overall return.>>>>>>>>

Someone a lot smarter than me once pointed out that you can determine
original deal frequency for any game by simply setting all paytable
values to zero. Since you would than have no incentive to not hold all
cards the displayed frequencies (at least in WinPoker) are those of the
initial deal. I think you can then determine return by multiply
frequencies by the actual paytable.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#3

full pay table I'll give you the total ER.<<

Sorry its taken so long to respond. As someone noted, the "deal"
and "redeal" jackpots require separate bets. But I'm still curious
what the "deal" payback is, so I've included the pay schedule below
for DDBP (this is a 9/5 game with a redeal payback of only 96.6%)
based on a 5-coin max bet.
RF: 60,000
SF: 2500
4Aces w/2,3,4: 5000
4-2,3,4 w/A,2,3,4: 2000
4Aces: 2000
4-2,3,4: 1000
4-5thruK: 500
FH: 200
F: 100
ST: 50
3ofaK: 30
2Pair: 20
JorBPair: 10
Pair of 5-10: 5

The last winning hand is quite unusual! Also, the variance of this
game must be extremely high.

At the SunCoast this game is offered in 2/5/10/25 cent
denominations. Playing 10 play at 25 cents, every game played costs
$25.00. I didn't check the pay schedule at lower denominations, but
I assume it's worse, or no better, than it is at 25 cents. This
strikes me as a short term play where you pray for a big dealt
jackpot before running out of money.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:

That seems way too good to be true, but if so, if you will post the

#4

brumar_lv wrote:

> That seems way too good to be true, but if so, if you will post the
full pay table I'll give you the total ER.<<

Sorry its taken so long to respond. As someone noted, the "deal"
and "redeal" jackpots require separate bets. But I'm still curious
what the "deal" payback is, so I've included the pay schedule below
for DDBP (this is a 9/5 game with a redeal payback of only 96.6%)
based on a 5-coin max bet.

Okay, so if I understand you correctly, the following is the pay you receive if you are "dealt" the following hands:

RF: 60,000
SF: 2500
4Aces w/2,3,4: 5000
4-2,3,4 w/A,2,3,4: 2000
4Aces: 2000
4-2,3,4: 1000
4-5thruK: 500
FH: 200
F: 100
ST: 50
3ofaK: 30
2Pair: 20
JorBPair: 10
Pair of 5-10: 5

snip

I am reposting that info with additional columns which indicate the expected frequency of those hands and the resulting expected return for each hand (pay for hand x expected frequency), which are as follows:

HAND PAY Exp.FREQ. ER
RF: 60,000 4 240,000
SF: 2,500 36 90,000 4Aces w/2,3,4: 5,000 12 60,000
4-2,3,4 w/A,2,3,4: 2,000 36 72,000
4Aces: 2,000 36 72,000
4-2,3,4: 1,000 108 108,000
4-5thruK: 500 432 216,000
FH: 200 3,744 748,800
F: 100 5,108 510,800
ST: 50 10,200 510,000
3ofaK: 30 54,912 1,647,360
2Pair: 20 123,552 2,471,040
JorBPair: 10 337,920 3,379,200
Pair of 5-10: 5 506,880 2,534,400
                               TOTAL: 12,659,600

Cost to play games = 52!/47!/5!*5= 12,994,800
TOTAL RETURN % = 12,659,600/12,994,800*100= 97.4%

The above ER is only for the "initial deal" portion of the game. After that part of the game, I understand that you then play-out your hand with a paytable that renders an ER of 96.6% as per your statement, above. You would then average the two = (97.4+96.6)/2= 97.0% TOTAL ER for GAME.

Now it makes sense. Cheers..

Bill Velek

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote: