vpFREE2 Forums

double down/bad math

double down bad points= no comp points being earned on coin in systems
when you double down.
If playin a full pay machine(over 100% with CB) you are giving back
your edge to the casino as double down is an even bet (100% return
long term)
less hands per hour when you have the edge

Wrong. You are only increasing the variance.

good points= if you are playin a low pay game (8/5 job 9/7 DB 8/5 DDB
or worse) the 100% return on the double down looks pretty good.
less hands per hour for the financially challenged.

Wrong again. Regardless of the game's basic ER, you are only
increasing the variance.

Bad math, I understand min. risk vs. max. vaule and some posters
desire to reinvent the wheel, but the decrease in volility does not
offset the decrease in return. Using examples as "if you could only
play a 1,000 hands" dont work as you play as much or little as you
want.

Doubling does not decrease the volatility in any circumstances. It
always increases it. But the implied suggestion to play more slowly
in a sub-100% situation is good.

IF your bankroll is small, play cheaper games. Vegas still has .05 FP
VP & Reno has .01 & .02 in the 50 & 100 play machines and yes , you
can play 1 line at a time.
There is only 1 way most of the time to correctly play a hand.
2+2 always = 4.

Yes, and (1/2)*2 = 1. That is, a 50% probability of twice the payoff
is always equal to the payoff.

My article in the November/December 2002 issue of Video Poker Times
shows why the Double Up feature does not change the overall expected
return of a game, but it does have a significant effect on the
variance. For example, the variance on 9/6 Jacks or Better without
the Double Up is 19.5. If you decide to double up once and only once
whenever you get a full house or lesser payoff, it does not change
the ER, but it increases the variance to 22.4. The effect is the same
on a positive expectation game -- no change in ER, but an increase in
variance.

Also, since it does not change the ER, it does not affect slot club
points on either a coin-in or coin-out system.

The double up has two bad effects:
1. It slows your play. Fewer hands per hour means a lower expected
win rate. (Of course slower play is good in a sub-100% situation.)
2. By increasing the variance, it increases your risk of ruin. The
more you double up, the greater your risk.

My advice on the double up remains the same. Double up any time you
would be willing to risk the amount of your win on the flip of a
coin. Better yet, call a slot attendant and have the double up option
turned off.

Dan

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mklpryy24" <mklpryy24@yahoo.com> wrote:
--
Dan Paymar, author of "Video Poker - Optimum Play"
Editor and publisher of "Video Poker Times" newsletter
Visit my web site at www.OptimumPlay.com

"Chance favors the prepared mind"
- Louis Pasteur

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Also, since it(doubling up) does not change the ER, it does not

affect slot club

points on either a coin-in or coin-out system.

Sorry, but doubling up slows your play and on coin in systems, since
you get points based on coins in, you will get less points/comps by
doubling.... I also agree to ask for the feature to be turned off.

Jim

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Dan Paymar <Dan@O...> wrote:

The double up has two bad effects:
1. It slows your play. Fewer hands per hour means a lower expected
win rate. (Of course slower play is good in a sub-100% situation.)
2. By increasing the variance, it increases your risk of ruin. The
more you double up, the greater your risk.

Here we go again. A comment similar to this is what launched the
"other strategies" thread.

In positive games, double up increases risk.

In negative games, double up reduces risk. Risk and variance
are _not_ equivalent concepts.

My advice on the double up remains the same. Double up any time you
would be willing to risk the amount of your win on the flip of a
coin. Better yet, call a slot attendant and have the double up option
turned off.

I'm sure you mean to say "on the flip of a _fair_ coin." Any VP game
can be exactly modelled as a long series of biased coin flips. The
double up option, when used with a negative game, is mathematically
equivalent to using a fair coin for some fraction of the flips. This is
better than always using a coin that is biased against you, and it is
mathematically equivalent to reducing risk. In a positive game, the double
up is like sometimes flipping a fair coin instead of always flipping a coin
that is biased in your favor -- this increases risk without any offsetting
benefit.

So, should you be willing to flip a fair coin? That depends on whether
the fair coin is an improvement over the biased coin which you would
be "flipping" instead.

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On Sunday 29 February 2004 10:09 am, Dan Paymar wrote: