vpFREE2 Forums

Do You Trust Indian Casinos?

#1

I am very sure that Seneca Niagara casino in Niagara Falls is not proper. I have tracked play there over time and it is way out of the norm. I understand the wild swings that are within the realm of variance. I play enough to have a good feel for random. My observation is that they have programed slightly increased odds for cards 5-10. The dealing of these cards are outside the normal distribution. Particulary 5's and 8's. If someone told me this I would not believe it either and had made it a mission to check this many times over the past year. If anyone out there plays there, keep this in mind when you see the distribution. I seldom visit anymore because of this, and it appears to me that there are fewer people at the higher demonination machines, and I just think that losing has driven away any real players. The bonus poker payscale is appealing, if it was legit. I keep very detailed records and they are visably different than all others. I did hit a draw two to a royal with a 5x STP for $20,000, so you can win, but the odds are twisted in relationship to the payscale. I believe Turning stone casino vp is random.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: mikeymic
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 1:54 AM
  Subject: [vpFREE] Do You Trust Indian Casinos?

  I have had MANY private email discussions about VP play at various Indian casinos. I would now like to open up the discussion to the entire group.

  In general, there is a suspicion that machines are not as regulated on private Indian land as in, for example, major Las Vegas casinos.

  My opinion is that there are undoubtedly unfair VP games being played every day. In this economy the temptation to squeeze out every dime of profit is too great to resist.

  In terms of my particular post today, I can inform you that there are indeed some Indian casinos where I will not play. I base my choices not only by personal experience but also by the many vpFREE members who email me. Regardless of whether I and others are actually being "cheated", if you feel unlucky or negative in a casino, then perhaps you should be playing elsewhere anyway.

  But I would like to get a sense, in general, of how the group feels about this issue. Any of your comments and reasoning would be appreciated.

  Mikey

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#2

Would you mind sharing with us your detailed records?

You mention that the Bonus Poker paytable is appealing. Since everyone defines appealing differently, could you let us know what you mean by appealing?

You also mention STP which is not listed in the database and can be very volatile. Is this a short pay game or full pay?

···

To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
From: videopoker@twcny.rr.com
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 22:49:45 -0400
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Do You Trust Indian Casinos?

I am very sure that Seneca Niagara casino in Niagara Falls is not proper. I have tracked play there over time and it is way out of the norm. I understand the wild swings that are within the realm of variance. I play enough to have a good feel for random. My observation is that they have programed slightly increased odds for cards 5-10. The dealing of these cards are outside the normal distribution. Particulary 5's and 8's. If someone told me this I would not believe it either and had made it a mission to check this many times over the past year. If anyone out there plays there, keep this in mind when you see the distribution. I seldom visit anymore because of this, and it appears to me that there are fewer people at the higher demonination machines, and I just think that losing has driven away any real players. The bonus poker payscale is appealing, if it was legit. I keep very detailed records and they are visably different than all others. I did hit a draw two to a royal with a 5x STP for $20,000, so you can win, but the odds are twisted in relationship to the payscale. I believe Turning stone casino vp is random.

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: mikeymic
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 1:54 AM
  Subject: [vpFREE] Do You Trust Indian Casinos?

  I have had MANY private email discussions about VP play at various Indian casinos. I would now like to open up the discussion to the entire group.

  In general, there is a suspicion that machines are not as regulated on private Indian land as in, for example, major Las Vegas casinos.

  My opinion is that there are undoubtedly unfair VP games being played every day. In this economy the temptation to squeeze out every dime of profit is too great to resist.

  In terms of my particular post today, I can inform you that there are indeed some Indian casinos where I will not play. I base my choices not only by personal experience but also by the many vpFREE members who email me. Regardless of whether I and others are actually being "cheated", if you feel unlucky or negative in a casino, then perhaps you should be playing elsewhere anyway.

  But I would like to get a sense, in general, of how the group feels about this issue. Any of your comments and reasoning would be appreciated.

  Mikey

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 8.5.439 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2960 - Release Date: 06/24/10 06:35:00

  ----------

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.439 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2960 - Release Date: 06/24/10 06:35:00

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------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

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#3

My wife and I have been visiting Seneca Niagara approximately once a month for the past three years.

Our results are totally within the range of what one should expect for what we play (mostly 8/5 bonus poker).

Unless the play tracking referred to involves the complete and laborious recording of each and every of several hundreds of thousands of individual deals, I would question the conclusion.

My most recent session there was, in fact, "way out of the norm". Twice in about three hours, playing triple line bonus poker, I was dealt all four aces.

That kind of "out of the norm" is OK with me.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Video Poker" <videopoker@...> wrote:

I am very sure that Seneca Niagara casino in Niagara Falls is not proper. I have tracked play there over time and it is way out of the norm. I understand the wild swings that are within the realm of variance. I play enough to have a good feel for random. My observation is that they have programed slightly increased odds for cards 5-10.

#4

The bonus poker is 8/5 with single $1, triple $1, and 3,5,amd 10 play $.50.
There are three STP $1 machines in the high limit area.

Win/loss sessions for 2009
Seneca Niagara 7/23 with 14 straight loss sessions 6/29-10/8
Turning Stone 20/19
Atlantic city 16/21

Seneca Niagara for 2010 1/8

Know this is overall, but there is a distinctive feel that comes with it. Looked at Seneca Niagara for 2008 and it was 18/19, but almost all losing sessions were at second half of year. This may be when some changes were made. The hard part here is that I enjoy the location and the way they treat me (Chairman's club and such, but you can not bleed the players. Know there will be anecdotal wins and such, but anyone who plays there should at least look for evidence related to my original comments.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: kelso 1600
  To: vpfree@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 8:37 AM
  Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Do You Trust Indian Casinos?

  Would you mind sharing with us your detailed records?

  You mention that the Bonus Poker paytable is appealing. Since everyone defines appealing differently, could you let us know what you mean by appealing?

  You also mention STP which is not listed in the database and can be very volatile. Is this a short pay game or full pay?

  > To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  > From: videopoker@twcny.rr.com
  > Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 22:49:45 -0400
  > Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Do You Trust Indian Casinos?
  >
  > I am very sure that Seneca Niagara casino in Niagara Falls is not proper. I have tracked play there over time and it is way out of the norm. I understand the wild swings that are within the realm of variance. I play enough to have a good feel for random. My observation is that they have programed slightly increased odds for cards 5-10. The dealing of these cards are outside the normal distribution. Particulary 5's and 8's. If someone told me this I would not believe it either and had made it a mission to check this many times over the past year. If anyone out there plays there, keep this in mind when you see the distribution. I seldom visit anymore because of this, and it appears to me that there are fewer people at the higher demonination machines, and I just think that losing has driven away any real players. The bonus poker payscale is appealing, if it was legit. I keep very detailed records and they are visably different than all others. I did hit a draw two to a royal with a 5x STP for $20,000, so you can win, but the odds are twisted in relationship to the payscale. I believe Turning stone casino vp is random.
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: mikeymic
  > To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  > Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 1:54 AM
  > Subject: [vpFREE] Do You Trust Indian Casinos?
  >
  >
  >
  > I have had MANY private email discussions about VP play at various Indian casinos. I would now like to open up the discussion to the entire group.
  >
  > In general, there is a suspicion that machines are not as regulated on private Indian land as in, for example, major Las Vegas casinos.
  >
  > My opinion is that there are undoubtedly unfair VP games being played every day. In this economy the temptation to squeeze out every dime of profit is too great to resist.
  >
  > In terms of my particular post today, I can inform you that there are indeed some Indian casinos where I will not play. I base my choices not only by personal experience but also by the many vpFREE members who email me. Regardless of whether I and others are actually being "cheated", if you feel unlucky or negative in a casino, then perhaps you should be playing elsewhere anyway.
  >
  > But I would like to get a sense, in general, of how the group feels about this issue. Any of your comments and reasoning would be appreciated.
  >
  > Mikey
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > ----------------------------------------------------------
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  >
  >
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  > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  > Version: 8.5.439 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2960 - Release Date: 06/24/10 06:35:00
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  > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >
  >
  >
  > ------------------------------------
  >
  > vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
  >
  > Yahoo! Groups Links
  >
  >
  >

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#5

If I felt I was being cheated by these Indian casinos, I would let them know about it. You can never tell what their marketing experts are looking at, and you just might hit the nail on the head if you let them know what you are thinking. If they keep thinking that gamblers are "stupid" and they can keep on pulling the wool over our eyes

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Video Poker" <videopoker@...> wrote:

The bonus poker is 8/5 with single $1, triple $1, and 3,5,amd 10 play $.50.
There are three STP $1 machines in the high limit area.

Win/loss sessions for 2009
Seneca Niagara 7/23 with 14 straight loss sessions 6/29-10/8

#6

Seneca Niagra is full Class III gaming and heavily regulated. They would not
risk everything by having gaffed machines.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
NEIL
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 8:28 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Do You Trust Indian Casinos?

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Video Poker" <videopoker@...> wrote:

I am very sure that Seneca Niagara casino in Niagara Falls is not proper.

I have tracked play there over time and it is way out of the norm. I
understand the wild swings that are within the realm of variance. I play
enough to have a good feel for random. My observation is that they have
programed slightly increased odds for cards 5-10.

My wife and I have been visiting Seneca Niagara approximately once a month
for the past three years.

Our results are totally within the range of what one should expect for what
we play (mostly 8/5 bonus poker).

Unless the play tracking referred to involves the complete and laborious
recording of each and every of several hundreds of thousands of individual
deals, I would question the conclusion.

My most recent session there was, in fact, "way out of the norm". Twice in
about three hours, playing triple line bonus poker, I was dealt all four
aces.

That kind of "out of the norm" is OK with me.

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#7

I play a lot of DB poker in which the paybacks for 2-4 and Aces is
dramatically higher than for 5-K. Even though I play downtown Las Vegas-and
never in Indian casinos-I am not beyond suspecting the casino owners of
"slanting" the deck.

So like you, "Video Poker," I keep track of every 4OAK I've ever gotten in
the past four years or so. I used to use pencil and paper and then
transcribe it to Excel but since I got my iPhone, I use an application
called Gamble Track (gambletrackapp.com) which makes it really easy to track
the 4's (and my losses for the IRS). Anyway, I have NOT found any shorted
populations in the lower paying 4's. In short, I'm pretty well convinced
there is an equal distribution of 4's of a kind across the 13 cards. OTOH,
I haven't had a Royal in my past 15 trips out there even though I play
fairly heavily for 3-4 days of each trip!

Lee

···

From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
Video Poker
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 9:50 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Do You Trust Indian Casinos?

I am very sure that Seneca Niagara casino in Niagara Falls is not proper. I
have tracked play there over time and it is way out of the norm. I
understand the wild swings that are within the realm of variance. I play
enough to have a good feel for random. My observation is that they have
programed slightly increased odds for cards 5-10. The dealing of these cards
are outside the normal distribution. Particulary 5's and 8's. If someone
told me this I would not believe it either and had made it a mission to
check this many times over the past year. If anyone out there plays there,
keep this in mind when you see the distribution. I seldom visit anymore
because of this, and it appears to me that there are fewer people at the
higher demonination machines, and I just think that losing has driven away
any real players. The bonus poker payscale is appealing, if it was legit. I
keep very detailed records and they are visably different than all others. I
did hit a draw two to a royal with a 5x STP for $20,000, so you can win, but
the odds are twisted in relationship to the payscale. I believe Turning
stone casino vp is random.

----- Original Message -----
From: mikeymic
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 1:54 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Do You Trust Indian Casinos?

I have had MANY private email discussions about VP play at various Indian
casinos. I would now like to open up the discussion to the entire group.

In general, there is a suspicion that machines are not as regulated on
private Indian land as in, for example, major Las Vegas casinos.

My opinion is that there are undoubtedly unfair VP games being played every
day. In this economy the temptation to squeeze out every dime of profit is
too great to resist.

In terms of my particular post today, I can inform you that there are indeed
some Indian casinos where I will not play. I base my choices not only by
personal experience but also by the many vpFREE members who email me.
Regardless of whether I and others are actually being "cheated", if you feel
unlucky or negative in a casino, then perhaps you should be playing
elsewhere anyway.

But I would like to get a sense, in general, of how the group feels about
this issue. Any of your comments and reasoning would be appreciated.

Mikey

----------------------------------------------------------

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.439 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2960 - Release Date: 06/24/10
06:35:00

----------

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.439 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2960 - Release Date: 06/24/10
06:35:00

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#8

I hope you contimue to win.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: NEIL
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 11:27 AM
  Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Do You Trust Indian Casinos?

  --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Video Poker" <videopoker@...> wrote:
  >
  > I am very sure that Seneca Niagara casino in Niagara Falls is not proper. I have tracked play there over time and it is way out of the norm. I understand the wild swings that are within the realm of variance. I play enough to have a good feel for random. My observation is that they have programed slightly increased odds for cards 5-10.

  My wife and I have been visiting Seneca Niagara approximately once a month for the past three years.

  Our results are totally within the range of what one should expect for what we play (mostly 8/5 bonus poker).

  Unless the play tracking referred to involves the complete and laborious recording of each and every of several hundreds of thousands of individual deals, I would question the conclusion.

  My most recent session there was, in fact, "way out of the norm". Twice in about three hours, playing triple line bonus poker, I was dealt all four aces.

  That kind of "out of the norm" is OK with me.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 8.5.439 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2966 - Release Date: 06/27/10 06:35:00

  ----------

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.439 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2972 - Release Date: 06/30/10 06:36:00

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#9

Regulated by whom? Their own gaming group.
Are you serious?

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Bill Coleman
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 9:27 PM
  Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Do You Trust Indian Casinos?

  Seneca Niagra is full Class III gaming and heavily regulated. They would not
  risk everything by having gaffed machines.

  -----Original Message-----
  From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
  NEIL
  Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 8:28 AM
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Do You Trust Indian Casinos?

  --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Video Poker" <videopoker@...> wrote:
  >
  > I am very sure that Seneca Niagara casino in Niagara Falls is not proper.
  I have tracked play there over time and it is way out of the norm. I
  understand the wild swings that are within the realm of variance. I play
  enough to have a good feel for random. My observation is that they have
  programed slightly increased odds for cards 5-10.

  My wife and I have been visiting Seneca Niagara approximately once a month
  for the past three years.

  Our results are totally within the range of what one should expect for what
  we play (mostly 8/5 bonus poker).

  Unless the play tracking referred to involves the complete and laborious
  recording of each and every of several hundreds of thousands of individual
  deals, I would question the conclusion.

  My most recent session there was, in fact, "way out of the norm". Twice in
  about three hours, playing triple line bonus poker, I was dealt all four
  aces.

  That kind of "out of the norm" is OK with me.

  ------------------------------------

  vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

  Yahoo! Groups Links

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 8.5.439 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2972 - Release Date: 06/30/10 06:36:00

  ----------

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.439 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2972 - Release Date: 06/30/10 06:36:00

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#10

Please don't repeat nonsense when 2 minutes online can give you accurate
information. In addition to the Federal Government (NIGC) and the Tribe's
regulators the compacts with NY State gives full regulatory authority to the
NY Racing and Gaming Board and REQUIRES that a representative be on-site at
all times. This is MUCH more stringent than Nevada regs.

Some states are less stringent but NY, California and most others are VERY
strict. All compacts that permit Class III gaming specify regulatory
authority.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
Video Poker
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 5:12 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Do You Trust Indian Casinos?

Regulated by whom? Their own gaming group.
Are you serious?

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Bill Coleman
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 9:27 PM
  Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Do You Trust Indian Casinos?

  Seneca Niagra is full Class III gaming and heavily regulated. They would
not
  risk everything by having gaffed machines.

  -----Original Message-----
  From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
  NEIL
  Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 8:28 AM
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Do You Trust Indian Casinos?

  --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Video Poker" <videopoker@...> wrote:
  >
  > I am very sure that Seneca Niagara casino in Niagara Falls is not
proper.
  I have tracked play there over time and it is way out of the norm. I
  understand the wild swings that are within the realm of variance. I play
  enough to have a good feel for random. My observation is that they have
  programed slightly increased odds for cards 5-10.

  My wife and I have been visiting Seneca Niagara approximately once a month
  for the past three years.

  Our results are totally within the range of what one should expect for
what
  we play (mostly 8/5 bonus poker).

  Unless the play tracking referred to involves the complete and laborious
  recording of each and every of several hundreds of thousands of individual
  deals, I would question the conclusion.

  My most recent session there was, in fact, "way out of the norm". Twice in
  about three hours, playing triple line bonus poker, I was dealt all four
  aces.

  That kind of "out of the norm" is OK with me.

  ------------------------------------

  vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

  Yahoo! Groups Links

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 8.5.439 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2972 - Release Date: 06/30/10
06:36:00

  ----------

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.439 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2972 - Release Date: 06/30/10
06:36:00

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#11

Wow!

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Bill Coleman
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 3:57 PM
  Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Do You Trust Indian Casinos?

  Please don't repeat nonsense when 2 minutes online can give you accurate
  information. In addition to the Federal Government (NIGC) and the Tribe's
  regulators the compacts with NY State gives full regulatory authority to the
  NY Racing and Gaming Board and REQUIRES that a representative be on-site at
  all times. This is MUCH more stringent than Nevada regs.

  Some states are less stringent but NY, California and most others are VERY
  strict. All compacts that permit Class III gaming specify regulatory
  authority.

  -----Original Message-----
  From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
  Video Poker
  Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 5:12 PM
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Do You Trust Indian Casinos?

  Regulated by whom? Their own gaming group.
  Are you serious?

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Bill Coleman
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 9:27 PM
  Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Do You Trust Indian Casinos?

  Seneca Niagra is full Class III gaming and heavily regulated. They would
  not
  risk everything by having gaffed machines.

  -----Original Message-----
  From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
  NEIL
  Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 8:28 AM
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Do You Trust Indian Casinos?

  --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Video Poker" <videopoker@...> wrote:
  >
  > I am very sure that Seneca Niagara casino in Niagara Falls is not
  proper.
  I have tracked play there over time and it is way out of the norm. I
  understand the wild swings that are within the realm of variance. I play
  enough to have a good feel for random. My observation is that they have
  programed slightly increased odds for cards 5-10.

  My wife and I have been visiting Seneca Niagara approximately once a month
  for the past three years.

  Our results are totally within the range of what one should expect for
  what
  we play (mostly 8/5 bonus poker).

  Unless the play tracking referred to involves the complete and laborious
  recording of each and every of several hundreds of thousands of individual
  deals, I would question the conclusion.

  My most recent session there was, in fact, "way out of the norm". Twice in
  about three hours, playing triple line bonus poker, I was dealt all four
  aces.

  That kind of "out of the norm" is OK with me.

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#12

That is great info. Looks like your behind 3 RF cycles. Sounds like the quad distribution is normal. You gotta be talking 200K hands?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Lee" <leesail@...> wrote:

I play a lot of DB poker in which the paybacks for 2-4 and Aces is
dramatically higher than for 5-K. Even though I play downtown Las Vegas-and
never in Indian casinos-I am not beyond suspecting the casino owners of
"slanting" the deck.

So like you, "Video Poker," I keep track of every 4OAK I've ever gotten in
the past four years or so. I used to use pencil and paper and then
transcribe it to Excel but since I got my iPhone, I use an application
called Gamble Track (gambletrackapp.com) which makes it really easy to track
the 4's (and my losses for the IRS). Anyway, I have NOT found any shorted
populations in the lower paying 4's. In short, I'm pretty well convinced
there is an equal distribution of 4's of a kind across the 13 cards. OTOH,
I haven't had a Royal in my past 15 trips out there even though I play
fairly heavily for 3-4 days of each trip!

Lee