Hello all, I'm a blackjack card counter who plays VP for cover &
comps. Now of course being an advantage player I play the VP
correctly. I was wondering, does the casino normally keep track of
such players, and will my VP advantage play raise a flag that could
possibly alert them to my BJ advantage play? Thanks.
Do casinos track VP skill?
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Gino Polkamouse"
<gino_polkamouse@y...> wrote:
Hello all, I'm a blackjack card counter who plays VP for cover &
comps. Now of course being an advantage player I play the VP
correctly. I was wondering, does the casino normally keep track of
such players, and will my VP advantage play raise a flag that could
possibly alert them to my BJ advantage play? Thanks.
If you are a winning player, then your VP play may very well be having
the opposite effect from that which you intended. LV casinos in the
last few years have been tracking (and in some cases, barring) skilled
VP players and sharing their data among themselves.
Also, the BJ player playing another game that can be beaten (as BJ
can) as "cover" is one of the oldest tricks in the book. I suggest, if
you want "cover" (and to have a little fun in the process), you play
some of those nickel mutliliner video themed slots that you see
everywhere. They're a hoot; you can play nine nickels a pop for an
expected loss of $5-10/hour; you will get comps/cashback at the higher
rate (most places pay less points for VP). Six spins/minute = 180/hr
or just over $80 coin-in, and you'll get a buck or so back in
cashback/comps and some mailers, too, plus a big neon sign on your
forehead that says "Low rolling slot bozo"--just what you want then to
THINK you are.
Continuing the way you have been is essentially placing yourself on
TWO "Please bar me" lists at once.
Gino Polkamouse wrote:
Hello all, I'm a blackjack card counter who plays VP for cover &
comps. Now of course being an advantage player I play the VP
correctly. I was wondering, does the casino normally keep track of
such players, and will my VP advantage play raise a flag that could
possibly alert them to my BJ advantage play? Thanks.
Take the following observations with a modest grain of salt ...
All information I've seen, plus private input from one self-proclaimed
"insider", suggests that vp skill isn't presently evaluated. While
the technology in place potentially could support it, the logistics to
implement the software and hardware apparently are sufficiently
cumbersome that casinos feel they have bigger fish to fry. But I have
little doubt that in the near future new generation equipment will
incorporate the necessary features.
It's also my observation that in most casinos the management of slot
play is fully segregated from table play. I've seen scant evidence of
cross management of play.
The greatest theat to skilled blackjack play comes from new systems
that evaluate betting patterns, such as that which has been reportedly
installed at LV Hilton.
All this said, certain aspects of vp play can attract attention that
would expose a player to greater examination of all play. In my
experience this includes play predominantly limited to highest EV
machines (particularly 100%+) and taking aggressive advantage of
promotional opportunities (e.g. gifts, events, and multiple points).
It goes without saying that "comp hounding", by frequently pushing
yourself in a host's face, qualifies here.
It's been my experience that near break-even ER play (9/6 Jacks w/
cashback, for example) doesn't draw undue attention in itself.
I've encountered those who regularly include some degree of reel play
in an effort to obscure positive play. I'm skeptical that it makes
much of a difference. To the extent that I've been exposed to the
player summary screens accessed by hosts, all slot/vp play is
aggregated and only a combined theoretical is reported. I have my
doubts that the negative EV of slot play is an efficient way to
improve one's attractiveness to a casino.
As I've suggested, take these comments for what they're worth.
They're not based upon 100% evidence.
- Harry
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Gino Polkamouse"
<gino_polkamouse@y...> wrote:
···
Hello all, I'm a blackjack card counter who plays VP for cover &
comps. Now of course being an advantage player I play the VP
correctly. I was wondering, does the casino normally keep track of
such players, and will my VP advantage play raise a flag that could
possibly alert them to my BJ advantage play? Thanks.
--------------------
Maybe not all vp players at least at the moment. BUT, take for
example names like Bob Dancer who I heard is not allowed anymore to
play at certain casinos and then one of our members here, Shapiro I
think is the name who posted a couple of times here about not being
allowed to play in a casino or two.
Tracking doesn't have to be done within the vp software. As they
show it on TV, those "eyes in the sky" are always ready to ZOOM IN
anytime they want or need to. In my experience in vegas, there were
a couple of times already when I hit 4 Aces with a kicker on DDB,
cashed out, continued playing for awhile, and when I go to a cashier,
s/he is already congratulating me for the good hit I had eventhough I
haven't shown her/him my ticket(s). The "eye in the sky", the change
people, etc. I think contributes to the "tracking" of casino players.
If you hit something BIG and use your cell phone right after the hit,
you'll notice how much more attention you get from the casino
personnel (from what I've noticed).
I guess the pros do it very professionally. Last month at The
Orleans, this guy hit the RF on a $5 machine for $20,000. He never
showed anything different: facial expression or vocal or not even a
smile. It's like nothing had happened. He played for another 3-5
minutes, hit a Full House on the $10 game then left quietly. All in
all, I think he only played for less than an hour (maybe not even 30
minutes). There was no sign of "Greed" on his part where if he is
really that good of a player, why leave that soon when you seem to be
hot or lucky and there's a lot more money to win.
Soooo...does the amount of playing time help in avoiding being track
on playing those VP machines?
gilbert_616 wrote:
Maybe not all vp players at least at the moment. BUT, take for
example names like Bob Dancer who I heard is not allowed anymore to
play at certain casinos and then one of our members here, Shapiro I
think is the name who posted a couple of times here about not being
allowed to play in a casino or two.
Can't speak to Shapiro's casino experience, but Dancer can walk into
MGM and play anytime he wants. He, and a handful of other players,
are simply excluded from cashback and attractive promotions -- such as
gift points from which Dancer acquired his and hers vehicles. $25 9/6
Jacks quickly loses its appeal.
When casinos have taken similar actions against vp players, it hasn't
been based upon tracked skill. Instead higher profile players are
targeted who the casino has reason to believe aren't profitable based
upon records of win/loss and comp/promo expense.
Of course, more moderate players can draw similar treatment when their
play habits attract attention. At Caesars AC there have been past
reports of those who have aggressively played particularly strong
opportunities and subsequently found themselves excluded from all
promotional mailings, including room offers. Couples who came in to
play after work day after day, playing a limited subset of machines,
were among those targeted.
In the rare case of reported player barrings, the exclusions at
Greektown were clearly capricious -- targeting highly active vp
players, whether skilled or not. In one example it appeared that
simply winning an unusually high jackpot was sufficient to be bounced.
My point is that players who maintain reasonable profiles have little
to fear in all but the extreme case of management gone rabid, as was
the case at Greektown. If, on the otherhand, your name could be
expected to pop up on a list of 100 most aggressive promo users or
most expensive players to the casino, there's cause to suspect that
you may be targeted for adverse action.
I'd venture to say that 99.9% of the players in this group have no
greater concern than that their host ultimately be stingier on
discretionary comps should they largely win in their play.
Presumption of skill may be at work, but there'd be no actual measurement.
- Harry
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:
All information I've seen, plus private input from one self-
proclaimed "insider", suggests that vp skill isn't presently
evaluated. While the technology in place potentially could support
it, the logistics to implement the software and hardware apparently
are sufficiently cumbersome that casinos feel they have bigger fish
to fry. But I have little doubt that in the near future new
generation equipment will incorporate the necessary features.
Unfortunately, VP skill is presently evaluated, albiet on a case by
case basis. In my neighborhood casinos, the management use my play
as an indication if the current promotion is too strong or there
exist a (or) defect(s) in their casinos (comp angle, cash back
angle, etc). I don't make very much but after watching me taking
small jackpots on a consistent basis, and that I tend to have
winning sessions when most people lose, it became apparent that I
am a skilled player. It can't be helped if their promotions
typically exceeds 104%. For example, image playing $1 9/6 JOB where
quads pay double -- it's very hard to lose money in these
situations. These casino guys aren't stupid especially when a
defect in the promotion caused them an extra $10,000 payout on the
first night.
Lastly, I know of several other people in different parts of the US
where their play constitute litmus tests.
<<Lastly, I know of several other people in different parts of the US
where their play constitute litmus tests.>>
I am my own worst enemy in this regard.
···
________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
for VP software and strategy cards and for the
Frugal series of books.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jason_c_vp wrote:
Unfortunately, VP skill is presently evaluated, albiet on a case by
case basis. In my neighborhood casinos, the management use my play
as an indication if the current promotion is too strong or there
exist a (or) defect(s) in their casinos (comp angle, cash back
angle, etc).
It's the case that skill is being inferred, not evaluated. If a bank
of machines or a promotion is hit hard, management assumes that those
hitting hardest are more knowledgable and skilled. However, there's
no quantitative assessment.
It's this type of inference, and relatively poor reasoning skills on
the part of floor management, that frequently targets their attention
on the wrong place ... cutting short some plays that are actually
profitable for them simply because of things such as a few frequent
progressive hits. Greektown has become the classic example of this
type of behavior.
At any rate, you're absolutely right in that outward behavior can
signal yourself as likely being a skilled player. The most adept
players are skilled at staying under the radar.
- Harry
Gotta disagree with you on this one, Harry. As casinos increasingly
ditch pure coin-in models in favor of the "mysterious" theoretical
player evaluation systems, they are increasingly engaging in direct
quantitative analysis of each player's skill level. Above all, when
a player's choice of machine and final result (win vs loss) become
significant factors in a casino's determination of that player's
comp and/or cashback level, then that player has been subject to
something far more significant than analysis by inference.
Pete
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:
jason_c_vp wrote:
> Unfortunately, VP skill is presently evaluated, albiet on a case
by
> case basis. In my neighborhood casinos, the management use my
play
> as an indication if the current promotion is too strong or there
> exist a (or) defect(s) in their casinos (comp angle, cash back
> angle, etc).It's the case that skill is being inferred, not evaluated. If a
bank
of machines or a promotion is hit hard, management assumes that
those
hitting hardest are more knowledgable and skilled. However,
there's
···
no quantitative assessment.
paisonvp wrote:
Gotta disagree with you on this one, Harry. As casinos increasingly
ditch pure coin-in models in favor of the "mysterious" theoretical
player evaluation systems, they are increasingly engaging in direct
quantitative analysis of each player's skill level. Above all, when
a player's choice of machine and final result (win vs loss) become
significant factors in a casino's determination of that player's
comp and/or cashback level, then that player has been subject to
something far more significant than analysis by inference.
Pete,
I may be splitting hairs here, but I don't think so. On the other
hand, I'm sure I'm close to (or past) beating a dead horse.
The question here was originally whether casinos have begun to measure
skill. At this point there is no direct skill measurement. The
closest the casino comes is an inference based upon a player bias to
games with lower theo house hold. But even then, I see very limited
direct focus on specific game selection by a player, just attention
paid to their overall theo profit from that player.
The first criterion by which players are evaluated are the theo of
play, irregardless of actual machines played. Reasonably, if play is
concentrated on games such as 9/6 Jacks, the theo as a percentage of
coin in is reduced and this player's benefits are less than a player
with equivalent coin-in on higher hold games. You'll forgive me for
stating the obvious, but the casinos observation of play choices
rarely goes deeper than this. Of course, when an astute host observes
a relatively low theo on high coin-in, they presume low hold game
selection such as Jacks.
A fair number of casinos rate strictly on theo numbers, but a growing
number look at actual profit/loss to the casino from a player as a
second criterion, particularly when it comes to higher end promos.
We're talking actual hold from the player minus the cost of comps and
other promos consumed. Let this number run negative, which over time
it can be expected to for the body of "advantage" players as a whole,
and these casinos begin to judiciously ween these players.
But it's on this second count where some casinos have an abysmal
record -- statistically we're talking about Type I/II estimation
errors. Simply put, they try to divide players into profitable and
non-profitable categories. However, since the bulk of players are
considerably profitable whereas most advantage players are thinly
unprofitable, relatively speaking, the hazard is that it's more likely
they'll inadvertantly thin out a player who actually can be expected
to be profitable to the casino than that they'll correctly identify a
significant number of unprofitable ones. I'd venture to say that
sweeping a profitable player out the door cancels out the benefit of
nailing something like 5 unprofitables.
So you end up with worst case scenarios such as Greektown. Even
before considering the terrible P.R. generated, I have little doubt
that the player actions were only negligibly profitable to the casino
(unless, perhaps, you count the takeback of some substantial
accumulated comp balances -- which alone instilled the fear of god
into the strongest players who they would most want to hold onto).
···
------
Forgive the divergence, but I want to make very clear that I don't
deny that casinos are, and always have been, looking at play
statistics. (Well, as you suggest, some casinos have been slow to
advance beyond coin-in only evaluation.) But when it comes to any
skill assessment, the closest the casinos come is "finger in the wind"
sophistication.
But, more to the point, efforts that the casinos do make to discourage
players who represent a negative prospect to the casino are crude at
best. Not only do the better players suffer for it, but others do as
well.
It really boils down to the fact that in these casinos if you have a
cumulative profit, whether by wit or shear luck alone, you get
screwed. It's absolutely true that if you're skilled you're more
likely to fall under the axe, but there's no great intelligence at
work here.
Expressing myself in my typical long-winded method, this is what I see
as the bottom line. The casinos have only the vaguest clue about skill.
But it's a no-brainer that when the casinos deem it cost-efficient to
implement skill based analysis software, it'll be a relatively
straightforward initiative. However, skilled players are still small
fries in the larger picture -- not inconsequential, but casinos have
miles to go in more efficiently managing the larger slot player base
... a casual conversation with any slot player provides a quick
reality check on this. Most slot players make it clear that they feel
that they're at the mercy of fickle casinos.
- Harry
Perhaps you put it a little too simply, you are referring to
hypothesis testing errors, not estimation errors,as in Type I error
the risk of rejecting a true null hypothesis. It would be a rather
simple task for a computer to compare anyone's play to optimal play,
and rate them accordingly. I seriously doubt the slots are currently
set up to do this. But I would expect this to occur in the future,
the cost would be minmal, and would allow them to adjust their
marketing accordingly. In any event the play has no real recourse,
are you going to play sub-optimally just to fool the tracking
software, and lower your expected return.The only strategy would be
to spread your play among a larger group of casinos so that it takes
them a longer period of time to gather a staticacally significant
sample size on you with which they can make their null hypothesis
that you are an optimal player at the 95% significance level...
-- statistically we're talking about Type I/II estimation
errors. Simply put, they try to divide players into profitable and
non-profitable categories. However, since the bulk of players are
considerably profitable whereas most advantage players are thinly
unprofitable, relatively speaking, the hazard is that it's more
likely
they'll inadvertantly thin out a player who actually can be expected
to be profitable to the casino than that they'll correctly identify
a
···
significant number of unprofitable ones. I'd venture to say that
sweeping a profitable player out the door cancels out the benefit of
nailing something like 5 unprofitables.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:
It really boils down to the fact that in these casinos if you have a
cumulative profit, whether by wit or shear luck alone, you get
screwed. It's absolutely true that if you're skilled you're more
likely to fall under the axe, but there's no great intelligence at
work here.
All I can add is my own experience, which seems to support Harry's
statement. I had been going to one of the Stations for 2-3 years,
staying on postcard comps and playing with a limited bankroll
(~$500). I started getting tournament invitations (BJ, slot) and
took them up on one. In that weekend, I hit 4 sets of quad deuces on
$.50 LDW for a $5,000 total win, of which I took $4,000 home. The
tournament offers have dried up completely, and the number of free
nights on recent postcards have been scarce or nonexistent. One
would think they'd want me to bring my newly enlarged bankroll back
to them.....
For the record:
I and my wife have been barred from River Palms because we played $5
machines at a promotion.
And, although not barred, are prohibited from playing progressives at
the Orleans. We may play non progressives.
Our last win at the Orleans (2002) was $25,000 on a dealt royal at 25c
10 play Chase the Royal machine.
···
On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 18:33:31 -0000, you wrote:
gilbert_616 wrote:
Maybe not all vp players at least at the moment. BUT, take for
example names like Bob Dancer who I heard is not allowed anymore to
play at certain casinos and then one of our members here, Shapiro I
think is the name who posted a couple of times here about not being
allowed to play in a casino or two.Can't speak to Shapiro's casino experience, but Dancer can walk into
MGM and play anytime he wants. He, and a handful of other players,
are simply excluded from cashback and attractive promotions -- such as
gift points from which Dancer acquired his and hers vehicles. $25 9/6
Jacks quickly loses its appeal.When casinos have taken similar actions against vp players, it hasn't
been based upon tracked skill. Instead higher profile players are
targeted who the casino has reason to believe aren't profitable based
upon records of win/loss and comp/promo expense.Of course, more moderate players can draw similar treatment when their
play habits attract attention. At Caesars AC there have been past
reports of those who have aggressively played particularly strong
opportunities and subsequently found themselves excluded from all
promotional mailings, including room offers. Couples who came in to
play after work day after day, playing a limited subset of machines,
were among those targeted.In the rare case of reported player barrings, the exclusions at
Greektown were clearly capricious -- targeting highly active vp
players, whether skilled or not. In one example it appeared that
simply winning an unusually high jackpot was sufficient to be bounced.My point is that players who maintain reasonable profiles have little
to fear in all but the extreme case of management gone rabid, as was
the case at Greektown. If, on the otherhand, your name could be
expected to pop up on a list of 100 most aggressive promo users or
most expensive players to the casino, there's cause to suspect that
you may be targeted for adverse action.I'd venture to say that 99.9% of the players in this group have no
greater concern than that their host ultimately be stingier on
discretionary comps should they largely win in their play.
Presumption of skill may be at work, but there'd be no actual measurement.- Harry
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
If you had the chance to do it again, what would you do differently
to avoid getting barred or at least maximize your play time before
getting barred? Were you playing two machines at once? Were you
playing more than four hours a day at the same casino? same machine?
same shift? Did you allow your cashback to accumulate to too high of
a level? Did you and your wife play as a team, locking up machines
and preventing others from playing? Did you call in friends to play
progressives on your cell phone? (looks like a team to the casino)
Did you get any warning signs that you might have missed? Did you tip
well (1%)? Did you look casual playing or too serious? Was there any
cover you could have used?
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Elliott Shapiro <videopoker@j...>
wrote:
For the record:
I and my wife have been barred from River Palms because we played $5
machines at a promotion.
And, although not barred, are prohibited from playing progressives
at
the Orleans. We may play non progressives.
Our last win at the Orleans (2002) was $25,000 on a dealt royal at
25c
···
10 play Chase the Royal machine.
River Palms promotion stated that within a 4 hour period, they would
double any payout. I played a $5 double bonus machines seeking 2,3,4
or Aces. Never got them so I settled ( after 3 hours) for a normal
quad. They barred ALL Las Vegans who played a $5 machine. As I feel
that the Edgewater has a better inventory, I have not missed the River
Palms.
As to the Orleans, we played 25c deuces wild when no progressives were
high and we played progressives when high. Never held a seat for
another, and often left before the progressive was hit. Did call
others on occasion, but they also would call me. Never played 2
machines but were very lucky in that we won often. Joanie had the
$25,000 dealt royal and also a $14,500 dealt on the triple play.
As Coast no longer has positive machines, other than the progressives,
I do not miss them but am unhappy that I have been singled out as I
have. Others that I know play progressives only, but have not been as
lucky as we were. On the fpdw, we often both had royals within an hour
of each other. They had great Chinese food in the restaurant.
···
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:39:07 -0000, you wrote:
If you had the chance to do it again, what would you do differently
to avoid getting barred or at least maximize your play time before
getting barred? Were you playing two machines at once? Were you
playing more than four hours a day at the same casino? same machine?
same shift? Did you allow your cashback to accumulate to too high of
a level? Did you and your wife play as a team, locking up machines
and preventing others from playing? Did you call in friends to play
progressives on your cell phone? (looks like a team to the casino)
Did you get any warning signs that you might have missed? Did you tip
well (1%)? Did you look casual playing or too serious? Was there any
cover you could have used?--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Elliott Shapiro <videopoker@j...>
wrote:For the record:
I and my wife have been barred from River Palms because we played $5
machines at a promotion.
And, although not barred, are prohibited from playing progressivesat
the Orleans. We may play non progressives.
Our last win at the Orleans (2002) was $25,000 on a dealt royal at25c
10 play Chase the Royal machine.
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Elliott Shapiro <videopoker@j...>
wrote:
River Palms promotion stated that within a 4 hour period, they would
double any payout. I played a $5 double bonus machines seeking
2,3,4
or Aces. Never got them so I settled ( after 3 hours) for a normal
quad. They barred ALL Las Vegans who played a $5 machine. As I
feel
that the Edgewater has a better inventory, I have not missed the
River
Palms.
That was probably too much action for them. You might have been able
to milk it longer on a dollar machine. Watch out for promotions that
are traps, they seem to be growing in number. The obvious example
would be a bj tournament that welcomes card counters, most likely
they are looking for who they should bar from their pit. Similar
stuff happens in the world of video poker.
As to the Orleans, we played 25c deuces wild when no progressives
were
high and we played progressives when high. Never held a seat for
another, and often left before the progressive was hit. Did call
others on occasion, but they also would call me.
That calling is a big problem. Makes you look like a team to the
casino. My advice would be not to do it, if you have to do it try to
disguise that you are holding a machine for someone, certainly avoid
exchanging money or buying credits. But in the end, if you and your
buddies are mostly the ones playing, the casino is gonna think you're
a team.
Never played 2
machines but were very lucky in that we won often. Joanie had the
$25,000 dealt royal and also a $14,500 dealt on the triple play.
As Coast no longer has positive machines, other than the
progressives,
I do not miss them but am unhappy that I have been singled out as I
have. Others that I know play progressives only, but have not been
as
lucky as we were. On the fpdw, we often both had royals within an
hour
of each other.
Too much luck is a problem. You should parley it to something else,
maybe even slightly negative, as cover. They may have thought you
were cheating somehow or maybe they just thought you two were super
pros or something.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:
It's the case that skill is being inferred, not evaluated. If a
bank
of machines or a promotion is hit hard, management assumes that
those
hitting hardest are more knowledgable and skilled. However,
there's
no quantitative assessment.
Skill *is* being evaluated on an individually basis. I won't go
into a detailed response except to say while on the surface, my
previous post talks about my being a lightning rod for casino
management and how I attacked promotions, Harry Porter clearly
misses the essential point.
It's not about skilled per se, but exactly how one is so skilled AND
how casino management OBJECTIVELY quantifies said lethal skill (this
applies to casinos where I have firsthand information). This is the
issue I want to address going back to the original post. If someone
were to rank bj players from novice counters to professional grade
counters, casino management have sufficient tools to individually
identify (if they so choose) and quantify novice to intermediate
skilled bj players. It's the professional grade bj counter that
casino management are afraid of most.
Now, turning our attention to vp, and I think Jean Scott got my
message because her vehicle to advantage play relies on, as I
understand it, comps, couponomy, etc. It's what I or professional
grade players do that scares management and unfortunately I can't
give details (this is why I gave a simple and universal example
about 104% ev in earlier post). To get that 104%, professional
grade vp players are exploiting the entire casino system, inclusive
of their player tracking system (such as Acre Gaming), their
marketing system, etc.*
To summarize, my message isn't a debate about if one is skilled, but
rather to the degree that one possess that much skill. And to state
that the casino management have sufficient tools to identify on an
objective basis any skilled player, and to the degree of their
skill, if the casino so chooses.
*I was particularly upset when a competitor had used a game I was
saving for another promotion to get an extra $10,000. But that is
life! The casino was equally upset as well.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Elliott Shapiro <videopoker@j...>
wrote:River Palms promotion stated that within a 4 hour period, they would
double any payout. I played a $5 double bonus machines seeking2,3,4
or Aces. Never got them so I settled ( after 3 hours) for a normal
quad. They barred ALL Las Vegans who played a $5 machine. As Ifeel
that the Edgewater has a better inventory, I have not missed the
River
Palms.
That was probably too much action for them. You might have been able
to milk it longer on a dollar machine. Watch out for promotions that
are traps, they seem to be growing in number. The obvious example
would be a bj tournament that welcomes card counters, most likely
they are looking for who they should bar from their pit. Similar
stuff happens in the world of video poker.As to the Orleans, we played 25c deuces wild when no progressives
were
high and we played progressives when high. Never held a seat for
another, and often left before the progressive was hit. Did call
others on occasion, but they also would call me.That calling is a big problem. Makes you look like a team to the
casino. My advice would be not to do it, if you have to do it try to
disguise that you are holding a machine for someone, certainly avoid
exchanging money or buying credits. But in the end, if you and your
buddies are mostly the ones playing, the casino is gonna think you're
a team.
In my case, I never held a machine for another, I played next to my
wife and yes, I sometimes gave her money, but for no one else. Whwen
I called, it was away from the machines, etc. Did not speak with or
converse with other players on the bank, etc. Did NOTHING to imply
that I was part of a group, because I was NOT part of a group.
···
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 02:42:55 -0000, you wrote:
Never played 2
machines but were very lucky in that we won often. Joanie had the
$25,000 dealt royal and also a $14,500 dealt on the triple play.
As Coast no longer has positive machines, other than theprogressives,
I do not miss them but am unhappy that I have been singled out as I
have. Others that I know play progressives only, but have not beenas
lucky as we were. On the fpdw, we often both had royals within an
hour
of each other.
Too much luck is a problem. You should parley it to something else,
maybe even slightly negative, as cover. They may have thought you
were cheating somehow or maybe they just thought you two were super
pros or something.vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
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