vpFREE2 Forums

Digest Number 2005

#1

Rasti$ P. Rulz wrote (snip):

Unfortunately, the
more players that learn optimum play for 100+% return games, the fewer
positive expectation machines there will be.

True, but there is a corollary to this: The more players that learn to recognize good payoff tables, the more demand there well be for good video poker games, and since 99% of people who become educated about the payoff tables will never learn optimum play, the casinos will still make money on them. The casinos understand this. Why do you think they pay Dancer to give his classes?

The moral of this? Educate as many people as possible about payoff tables.

Dan

···

--
Dan Paymar
Author of best selling book, "Video Poker - Optimum Play"
Editor/Publisher of VP newsletter "Video Poker Times"
Developer of VP analysis/trainer software "Optimum Video Poker"
Visit my web site at www.OptimumPlay.com

"Chance favors the prepared mind." -- Louis Pasteur

#2

True, but there is a corollary to this: The more players that learn
to recognize good payoff tables, the more demand there well be for
good video poker games, and since 99% of people who become educated
about the payoff tables will never learn optimum play, the casinos
will still make money on them. The casinos understand this. Why do
you think they pay Dancer to give his classes?

The moral of this? Educate as many people as possible about payoff

tables.

Dan
--
Dan Paymar
Author of best selling book, "Video Poker - Optimum Play"
Editor/Publisher of VP newsletter "Video Poker Times"
Developer of VP analysis/trainer software "Optimum Video Poker"
Visit my web site at www.OptimumPlay.com

"Chance favors the prepared mind." -- Louis Pasteur

I suspect that part of the reasoning for downgrading pay schedules is
that casinos prefer to upgrade comps instead because that seems to
attract the most people (cash back, free meals, drawings,
merchandise, etc.) The nice thing about comps is they have zero
variance ... you get them no matter how badly you play, or how
unlucky you are. In that sense downgrading a pay schedule and
offsetting it with equilivant comps is to be preferred, if in fact
they do that. One point Dancer made in his book is he played JorB
almost exclusively (a negative expectation game), but that was more
than offset by big comps.

Wonder what would happen if casinos posted the EV on the machine, or
in parenthesis next to the name of the game on the pay schedule ...
eg. Jacks or Better (99.54% EV)? Would customers take notice?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Dan Paymar <Dan@O...> wrote:

#3

By my limited observation, no they wouldn't. I have tried to tell several people I know about positive full pay video poker, but they weren't interested. They said they didn't want to work for their entertainment; or they just didn't believe it, and thought it was hype. Then they went back to playing their slots.

Sharon

Wonder what would happen if casinos posted the EV on the machine, or
in parenthesis next to the name of the game on the pay schedule ...
eg. Jacks or Better (99.54% EV)? Would customers take notice?

#4

Based on what I said in my original post, casinos can put 100% signs
over the machines, and it doesn't make any difference. As an
example, sometime in the last few months the little Tuscany casino

I suspect that part of the reasoning for downgrading pay schedules

is

that casinos prefer to upgrade comps instead because that seems to
attract the most people (cash back, free meals, drawings,
merchandise, etc.) The nice thing about comps is they have zero
variance ... you get them no matter how badly you play, or how
unlucky you are. In that sense downgrading a pay schedule and
offsetting it with equilivant comps is to be preferred, if in fact
they do that. One point Dancer made in his book is he played JorB
almost exclusively (a negative expectation game), but that was

more

than offset by big comps.

Wonder what would happen if casinos posted the EV on the machine,

or

in parenthesis next to the name of the game on the pay

schedule ...

···

on Flamingo added 100% Deuces. In my visits there since then, I have never seen anyone else play these machines. Not one time. --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...> wrote:

eg. Jacks or Better (99.54% EV)? Would customers take notice?

#5

brumar_lv wrote:

I suspect that part of the reasoning for downgrading pay schedules is
that casinos prefer to upgrade comps instead because that seems to
attract the most people (cash back, free meals, drawings,
merchandise, etc.)

Clearly I'm playing in the wrong joints. Where I've seen paytables
cut, any increase in comps doesn't come close to making up the lost EV.

- H.

#6

They do this at the Cannery on their > %100 machines. Big signs on the tops of all their best machines. When I was there they seemed to be getting the same amount of play as their below %100 machines.

Regards
A.P.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: brumar_lv
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 5:17 PM
  Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Digest Number 2005

  Wonder what would happen if casinos posted the EV on the machine, or
  in parenthesis next to the name of the game on the pay schedule ...
  eg. Jacks or Better (99.54% EV)? Would customers take notice?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#7

In Reno about 15 years ago, they put signs on dollar
slot machines at the flamingo downtown with paybacks
of 96% to 100% posted on each individual machine. As
far as I could tell, this made no difference at all as
to which machines people played.

···

--- Charles <fromthevault@yahoo.com> wrote:

Based on what I said in my original post, casinos
can put 100% signs
over the machines, and it doesn't make any
difference. As an
example, sometime in the last few months the little
Tuscany casino
on Flamingo added 100% Deuces. In my visits there
since then, I have
never seen anyone else play these machines. Not one
time.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv"
<brumar_lv@y...> wrote:
>
> I suspect that part of the reasoning for
downgrading pay schedules
is
> that casinos prefer to upgrade comps instead
because that seems to
> attract the most people (cash back, free meals,
drawings,
> merchandise, etc.) The nice thing about comps is
they have zero
> variance ... you get them no matter how badly you
play, or how
> unlucky you are. In that sense downgrading a pay
schedule and
> offsetting it with equilivant comps is to be
preferred, if in fact
> they do that. One point Dancer made in his book
is he played JorB
> almost exclusively (a negative expectation game),
but that was
more
> than offset by big comps.
>
> Wonder what would happen if casinos posted the EV
on the machine,
or
> in parenthesis next to the name of the game on the
pay
schedule ...
> eg. Jacks or Better (99.54% EV)? Would customers
take notice?

__________________________________
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#8

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:

Clearly I'm playing in the wrong joints. Where I've seen paytables
cut, any increase in comps doesn't come close to making up the lost

EV.

- H.

That's true in LV too, but I think comps in general have gradually
improved over the past few years (I'll probably get my head bit off
for saying that). For casinos, comps have a big advantage ... they
can undergo constant adjustment without much trouble. For example, a
big drawing in January, free coats in February, 3x points in March,
etc. But to change pay schedules ... that's costly and not all that
easy to do I've heard. The casino has to involve the Gaming Control
Board, replace parts in the machine, reprogram the pay schedule
display, etc. You can't make those kinds of changes every day of the
week ... but they can change comps almost daily.

As others noted, I guess there isn't much to be gained by displaying
the EV on the machine. Most people simply aren't interested, or
don't believe it anyway. This is unfortunate because if more people
were selective in their play I think the pay schedules would improve.

#9

Could you be a little more specific as to which casinos you noticed
an increase in comps for VP players during the past couple of years.

It seems like every casino I play in wants more and more coin-in to
get the comps that I am used to getting. Am willing to make some
changes if necessary to other casinos.

Gary

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:

> Clearly I'm playing in the wrong joints. Where I've seen

paytables

> cut, any increase in comps doesn't come close to making up the

lost

EV.
>
> - H.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's true in LV too, but I think comps in general have gradually
improved over the past few years (I'll probably get my head bit

off

for saying that). For casinos, comps have a big advantage ...

they

can undergo constant adjustment without much trouble. For

example, a

big drawing in January, free coats in February, 3x points in

March,

etc. But to change pay schedules ... that's costly and not all

that

easy to do I've heard. The casino has to involve the Gaming

Control

Board, replace parts in the machine, reprogram the pay schedule
display, etc. You can't make those kinds of changes every day of

the

week ... but they can change comps almost daily.

As others noted, I guess there isn't much to be gained by

displaying

the EV on the machine. Most people simply aren't interested, or
don't believe it anyway. This is unfortunate because if more

people

were selective in their play I think the pay schedules would

improve.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...> wrote:

#10

Agreed, in reference to "comps" per se. But mailings for Las Vegas locals have definitely improved, and I think (but can no longer claim expertise) that they have improved for LV visitors as well?

John

kelso1600 wrote:

···

Could you be a little more specific as to which casinos you noticed an increase in comps for VP players during the past couple of years.

It seems like every casino I play in wants more and more coin-in to get the comps that I am used to getting. Am willing to make some changes if necessary to other casinos.

Gary

#11

I guess I put myself on the spot didn't I (as predicted)? Well, I
certainly haven't studied the history of comps in detail ... my
observation was based on other posters who have made similar
observations. Maybe Krause, Compton, or Scott (who are experts) will
offer their opinion. I do know the SunCoast increased their cash
back
earlier this year, and I believe the same games are there, including
some 2X comp days. And the Rampart has so many promotions going its
hard to keep track of them all.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kelso1600" <kelso1600@h...> wrote:

Could you be a little more specific as to which casinos you noticed
an increase in comps for VP players during the past couple of years.

It seems like every casino I play in wants more and more coin-in to
get the comps that I am used to getting. Am willing to make some
changes if necessary to other casinos.

Gary

#12

brumar_lv wrote:

I guess I put myself on the spot didn't I (as predicted)? Well, I
certainly haven't studied the history of comps in detail ... my
observation was based on other posters who have made similar
observations. Maybe Krause, Compton, or Scott (who are experts)
will offer their opinion. I do know the SunCoast increased their
cash back earlier this year, and I believe the same games are there,
including some 2X comp days. And the Rampart has so many
promotions going its hard to keep track of them all.

Actually, as far as the LV locals scene goes you're likely on target.
In the case of Coast, I would hope that competitive pressures would
induce them to offer up something as a compromise for the full pay vp
devastation. However, is it really the case that a player there is
seeing improved values in comps and promos that fully compensate for
the elimination of FPDW?

My reaction to your post (largely intended tongue-in-cheek) is a
reflection of my own experience with AC and the LV Strip.

In 2003 the LV Strip situation was one where it seemed a crime to pass
up the occasional confluence of attractive casino promotions ... a
fact that sent me on the cross country trek from Philly a half dozen
times. There's been little in 2004 that's come even close to inducing
me to expend the time and money to return to LV even once. (That's
not to suggest that it's not a fine place to simply play without the
strongest of promos :wink: At the same time, there's been sporadic
thinning of cb/comps.

AC has always been a case of ebb and flow. Just right now, in my eyes
the Boardwalk is largely high and dry relative to the past few years.

- Harry

#13

The Coast Casinos did increase their cashback but that was meant to
coincide with the significant reduction in return from FPDW which
they removed to NSUD. Thus, a decrease in yield with cashback from
over 100.7% to just barely over 100%. The player took a substantial
hit even though the cashback was increased by .05%. In addition to
removing FPDW, all Coast Casinos have reduced comps. I was shocked
to see the rates that they were trying to get for rooms at the
Suncoast on an ordinary weeknight recently when I just needed to stay
somewhere for a night and the play requirement that Donna Sinclair
quoted was shocking as well.

As to the Rampart if there is anything significant going on there,
please let us know. Would be happy to stay there but have always had
a difficult time determining what the play levels that were required
for rooms and food were. If the promotion is for a t-shirt or some
dtrawing for $1000 where 10,000 other people have entries it does not
do much for me.

Gary

>
> Could you be a little more specific as to which casinos you

noticed

> an increase in comps for VP players during the past couple of

years.

>
> It seems like every casino I play in wants more and more coin-in

to

> get the comps that I am used to getting. Am willing to make some
> changes if necessary to other casinos.
>
> Gary
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I guess I put myself on the spot didn't I (as predicted)? Well, I
certainly haven't studied the history of comps in detail ... my
observation was based on other posters who have made similar
observations. Maybe Krause, Compton, or Scott (who are experts)

will

offer their opinion. I do know the SunCoast increased their cash
back
earlier this year, and I believe the same games are there,

including

some 2X comp days. And the Rampart has so many promotions going

its

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kelso1600" <kelso1600@h...> wrote:
hard to keep track of them all.