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Digest Number 1672

John.G.Zaroff wrote:

blaw57 wrote ....

Here's the crux - I asked Bob and Dan to have the "eye-in-the-sky"
films reviewed for the last 5 minutes, to see who cashed out my machine and
where they went after they did it. They refused to do this, and further
stated that there was nothing illegal in someone taking the credits from an
"abandoned" machine (I had my chair leaned up against the machine, had an
open water bottle next to it and my usual litter in the coin tray -
cigarettes and lighter, strategy cards, notebook and pen). They said that
they did not condone the practice, and that if they noticed it happening
they would have interfered "just because we don't want that kind of person
in our casino" but that they were not going to get involved in making one
guest give money back to another guest who had abandoned it.

I thought there was some sort of law about taking money from a
machine that's not yours. I have heard of security guards booting
people out for silver mining. There was a huge lawsuit at Motor
City Casino in Detroit where a woman was escorted out for picking up
a nickel in a coin tray. She wasn't treated very nicely and sued.
The judge in the case awarded her $875,000.

So, is there a law against taking money from a machine that you
haven't been playing? If so, couldn't you use that piece of
information to get Harrah's interested in your claim? And if it
isn't a law, it sure seems like there would be some more aggressive
battles for coins in a machine. If I start up for a stretch break,
does that constitute an abandoned machine? I would think the
casinos want less conflict, not more.

I'm not sure whether there is a law specifically against cashing out
someone else's machine, but it seems that it should fall under the
common theft laws.

There is a law or regulation that money abandoned in a casino becomes
the property of the casino (giving further indication of who controls
the politics in this state). Thus, when the player left the machine
unattended with credits, the money technically became the property of
the casino. When someone else cashed it out, it seems that
technically he was stealing from the casino.

That judge's award obviously had nothing to do with taking the
nickel. It only had to do with how she was treated. Most casinos
would have simply informed her of the law and warned her not to do it
again.

I remember a case reported here last year at Sam's Town where a
player abandoned credits on a machine without any slot card, upturned
chair, or anything else to indicate that he was returning. Another
player cashed it out. The casino reviewed the tapes, paid the
original player the money that he had abandoned, and went after the
player who cashed it out for return of the money. Here was a case
where the casino went out of its way to help a stupid customer.

Will I ever play at Harrah's again after hearing this story? No. I'll
play at casinos such as Sam's Town who try to help out unfortunate
players. Here's a suggestion for some web site manager -- start a
rating system for casinos, keeping track of stories such as this.

My recommendation: If something like that happens to you, ask the
casino to call Gaming Control. They are required to do so at a
player's request. If they won't call, the phone number is 486-2020.

Dan

···

--
Dan Paymar, author of "Video Poker - Optimum Play"
Editor and publisher of "Video Poker Times" newsletter
Visit my web site at www.OptimumPlay.com

"Chance favors the prepared mind"
- Louis Pasteur

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Dan Paymar wrote:

snip

That judge's award obviously had nothing to do with taking the
nickel. It only had to do with how she was treated. Most casinos
would have simply informed her of the law and warned her not to do it
again.

Well, I'd have to read the case to believe it. I see juries apparently composed of stupid and/or unreasonable people award ridiculous sums, but rarely a judge. I figure that there was either some really atrocious behavior on the part of the casino that caused some very significant physical and/or emotional injury, damage to reputation, or such totally and ridiculously outlandish behavior to justify a bunch of punitive damages ... or perhaps this is just an urban legend. Certainly a very big mis-step by the casinos attorney unless things are considerably different wherever this is supposed to occur. To begin with, in most places the defense would have been entitled to a jury trial for such a case, but the defense would probably have waived a jury to avoid the risk of getting a bunch of numbskulls for jurors, and a knowledgeable attorney ought to also know something about the judge and how he might predictably react in the case.

I remember a case reported here last year at Sam's Town where a
player abandoned credits on a machine without any slot card, upturned
chair, or anything else to indicate that he was returning. Another
player cashed it out. The casino reviewed the tapes, paid the
original player the money that he had abandoned, and went after the
player who cashed it out for return of the money. Here was a case
where the casino went out of its way to help a stupid customer.

Well, sometimes it makes sense to help foolish or naive people ... and sometimes it doesn't make sense.

Will I ever play at Harrah's again after hearing this story? No.

The story makes no difference to me, and probably doesn't make any difference to most people. I figure that I'll never be in that position because I'm not that foolish and careless. I play where the odds are best and the comps are good.

I'll
play at casinos such as Sam's Town who try to help out unfortunate
players. Here's a suggestion for some web site manager -- start a
rating system for casinos, keeping track of stories such as this.

How many people would even bother to check the ratings about that sort of a thing. Seriously, I would put good parking on a higher level myself, but to each their own I guess.

My recommendation: If something like that happens to you, ask the
casino to call Gaming Control. They are required to do so at a
player's request. If they won't call, the phone number is 486-2020.

What is gaming control supposed to do about it then? I'm really curious because I don't know exactly what the laws are in the various places where casinos are located. But I suspect that most places will need to prove that you took the money with criminal intent. Now, suppose you walk up, notice credits on the machine or coins in the tray, stick your own card in along with a bill from your wallet, play quite a few games, and then cash out -- or play them all. Do you think that anyone will have a really good chance of proving beyond a reasonable doubt (the most common standard of proof in criminal cases) that you actually knew that there were credits on the machine or coins in the tray, and that you actually noticed that I had more credits than you should have, or that you counted your coins when you cashed out? I think that in most instances it's a case that most prosecutors wouldn't want to touch. See my other post along the same lines.

Cheers.

Bill Velek

Although I'm sure the re-telling(s) of the story have resulted in exaggerations, the basic facts of the case are not urban legend. An elderly woman picked up a nickel that didn't belong to her and was confronted with security. Although the exent they "abused her" was a major part of the dispute in the case, all the parties pretty much agreed she did not simply get a polite warning.

The case made the papers in several cities, including KC. The local gambling columnist here made mention of it in one of his columns. (He took the casino's side of the argument.)

carlos

···

Bill Velek <billvelek@alltel.net> wrote:
Well, I'd have to read the case to believe it. I see juries apparently
composed of stupid and/or unreasonable people award ridiculous sums, but
rarely a judge. I figure that there was either some really atrocious
behavior on the part of the casino that caused some very significant
physical and/or emotional injury, damage to reputation, or such totally
and ridiculously outlandish behavior to justify a bunch of punitive
damages ... or perhaps this is just an urban legend.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carlos Lebron wrote:

Although I'm sure the re-telling(s) of the story have resulted in exaggerations, the basic facts of the case are not urban legend. An elderly woman picked up a nickel that didn't belong to her and was confronted with security. Although the exent they "abused her" was a major part of the dispute in the case, all the parties pretty much agreed she did not simply get a polite warning.

Was it really just _one_ ... _NICKEL_??

And merely not being treated politely entitles no one to _any_ sort of damages at all. So, was she physically injured when security wrestled her to the floor to handcuff her for ... A NICKEL?? Or did they yell: "Stop, thief!" ... in front of a large crowd and take photos of her which they then posted in public view ... over a NICKEL?? Or did security upset her so much that she suffered a heart attack? If there is any truth at all to the story, there has to more to it than what has been mentioned.

As I sort of indicated earlier: common-sense demands that I remain very skeptical of this 'story' until I learn about it from a reliable source (e.g., a published law book, and certainly _NOT_ a newspaper or gambling column). No offense to you or anyone else intended. People innocently repeat myths all the time.

Cheers.

Bill Velek

···

The case made the papers in several cities, including KC. The local gambling columnist here made mention of it in one of his columns. (He took the casino's side of the argument.)

As I recall, it WAS over a single nickel. That's one of the reasons the incident made the news.

That being said, I agree completely that what is presented in the newspapers and weekly news magazines should be taken with a large grain of salt. I work for a municipal government and have seen many instances where a news story about City Hall bore little resemblance to what actually happened.

However, if you want I can try to find a copy of the original news story and send it to you.

carlos

···

Bill Velek <billvelek@alltel.net> wrote:
Was it really just _one_ ... _NICKEL_??

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Carlos Lebron wrote:

As I recall, it WAS over a single nickel. That's one of the reasons the incident made the news.

That being said, I agree completely that what is presented in the newspapers and weekly news magazines should be taken with a large grain of salt. I work for a municipal government and have seen many instances where a news story about City Hall bore little resemblance to what actually happened.

However, if you want I can try to find a copy of the original news story and send it to you.

I'd certainly be interested in reading it, but there's no need for you to bother yourself over it. It's really not important because I doubt anything like that will ever happen again ... or to me, either. But thanks for the kind offer.

Cheers.

Bill