vpFREE2 Forums

Digest Number 1252

If a single player plays 100 million hands, then you'd
expect the frequency of payoffs to come pretty close to what the
VP programs compute. Similarly, if you have 100 million players
each play a single hand, the frequency of payoffs averaged over
these players would be the same. Yet, each player is playing
a very "short run" of one single game.

I suppose that's true. And an infinite number of monkeys at typewriters
will write the Bible if given infinite time. That's my point: as true as
a statement, or mathematical model may be, it's got to have some practical
value. Variance is unpredictable, unforecastable. It is just there. It
is what it is. It is, if anything, a deviation from the norm...but the
norm is made up entirely of deviations. The models will show the amount of
expected variance, but don't tell you that the complete probability
distribution is the sum of that variance.

It makes no difference whether we're talking about EV or ER or
the complete probability distribution which describes the game
(as played by some chosen strategy).

I think that it does make a difference, and I purposely avoided mentioning
EV because of that difference. Assuming perfect play ER remains constant
while EV is dependent on other factors. The ER is a direct reflection of
the complete probability distribution. In my posts I complained that some
players use models of ER as if they were products with some kind of implied
guarantee. I did not mention EV because it doesn't apply to my argument.

Yes, there are fluctuations. That comes with uncertainty and ANY
model that isn't deterministic. However, this has nothing to do
with any sort of approximation, and IMO short-term vs. long-term is
usually a meaningless distinction. As more games are played, we
expect the relative frequency of outcomes to grow closer to the exact
percentages predicted, but in an absolute sense the numbers become
less certain. If you play a single game, you know the number of payoffs
for "high pair" will either be zero or one. If you play 100 million

games,

we might observe 21.3% of the outcome as "high pair" events, but the
absolute uncertainty in this value will be proportional to sqrt(100

million),

so the std. dev. in absolute terms has grown to something like 4600 units
for the "high pair" payoffs. So, as the number of trials grows, absolute
uncertainty increases while relative (percentage) uncertainty decreases.
Going from short term to long term just trades one form of uncertainty for
another, but in either case we are limited to how accurately we can pin
down the results.

So in either case there is a relatively large amount of absolute/relative
uncertainty, which would seem to indicate that the models are very nice
indicators of what will happen over time but not very good indicators of
what will happen at any given point in the timeline of those 100 million
hands. Within the context of my premise that players who rely too heavily
on these models as a basis for their expectations are misinterpreting
their meaning, that seems to support it, and moreso in the short term.

I understand your aversion to using that
word in connection with gambling, but we can predict with
complete certainty that an infinite number of payoffs will never
occur. Knowing which payoffs are possible, and knowing how
often those payoffs can be expected, is far removed from
"virtually no" information.

Nice twist. But no, in the short term there are no reliable expectations.
Frequency distribution is a long term measure. True, there is information,
but it's tantamount to saying that the average temperature in Los Angeles
is 68, without mentioning that some days are 105 and others are 40. Let me
put it this way: When it comes to playing vp, always bring a sweater.

lb

"variance giveth, variance taketh away"

> If a single player plays 100 million hands, then you'd
> expect the frequency of payoffs to come pretty close to what the
> VP programs compute. Similarly, if you have 100 million players
> each play a single hand, the frequency of payoffs averaged over
> these players would be the same. Yet, each player is playing
> a very "short run" of one single game.

I suppose that's true. And an infinite number of monkeys at typewriters
will write the Bible if given infinite time. That's my point: as true as
a statement, or mathematical model may be, it's got to have some practical
value.

Are you suggesting that probability models have no practical value?
If so, then finding optimal strategies is pointless, and how you play
wouldn't affect your outcome. Surely there is much value in the models.
However, they do have limits. One shouldn't expect them to provide
information that simply isn't available. I suppose that is the real trick
in truly understanding what they mean.

Variance is unpredictable, unforecastable. It is just there. It
is what it is. It is, if anything, a deviation from the norm...but the
norm is made up entirely of deviations. The models will show the amount of
expected variance, but don't tell you that the complete probability
distribution is the sum of that variance.

I think you are using the term "variance" in a way that is different
than the normal mathematical meaning of "variance", so I don't know
what to make of the lines above. A probability distibution isn't a
sum of variance, because a distributions is a function while variance
is a single number that is computed from the distribution.

Perhaps you mean something more like "fluctuation." Bankroll history
could be viewed as fluctuations due to an ongoing stream of play.
The models place bounds on the fluctuation, but the bounds are
somewhat fuzzy. This lets you predict how likely it is to stray X
units from the predicted mean, and the predictions can be made
short term or long term.

> It makes no difference whether we're talking about EV or ER or
> the complete probability distribution which describes the game
> (as played by some chosen strategy).

I think that it does make a difference, and I purposely avoided mentioning
EV because of that difference. Assuming perfect play ER remains constant
while EV is dependent on other factors. The ER is a direct reflection of
the complete probability distribution.

So is EV. The are mathematically equivalent.

In my posts I complained that some
players use models of ER as if they were products with some kind of implied
guarantee. I did not mention EV because it doesn't apply to my argument.

If ER applies, then EV must also, because they are (only slightly) different
manifestations of the same basic concept.

> So, as the number of trials grows, absolute
> uncertainty increases while relative (percentage) uncertainty decreases.
> Going from short term to long term just trades one form of uncertainty
> for another, but in either case we are limited to how accurately we can
> pin down the results.

So in either case there is a relatively large amount of absolute/relative
uncertainty, which would seem to indicate that the models are very nice
indicators of what will happen over time but not very good indicators of
what will happen at any given point in the timeline of those 100 million
hands.

Right. There are limitations to what can be predicted when randomness
is involved. That is the difference between random vs. deterministic.

Within the context of my premise that players who rely too heavily
on these models as a basis for their expectations are misinterpreting
their meaning, that seems to support it, and moreso in the short term.

I agree except for the "moreso in the short term" part. I especially agree
that "players who rely too heavily ... are misinterpreting their meaning."
I don't think book/program authors should be blamed for this. If players
don't take the time to understand what the numbers do/don't imply,
then that is nobody's fault but their own. Granted, this isn't a topic that
is easy to understand, but people need to take personal responsibility
for their actions. This is especially true of gamblers. Gamblers who
do not accept responsibility for their own risks are likely to lose fortunes,
homes, spouses etc. as a result.

>I understand your aversion to using that
> word in connection with gambling, but we can predict with
> complete certainty that an infinite number of payoffs will never
> occur. Knowing which payoffs are possible, and knowing how
> often those payoffs can be expected, is far removed from
> "virtually no" information.

Nice twist. But no, in the short term there are no reliable expectations.
Frequency distribution is a long term measure.

I completely disagree, but I see that my words haven't convinced you
otherwise. The idea that probability is all "long term" is a flawed notion.
It is a very common notion, but a flawed one nonetheless.

Let me
put it this way: When it comes to playing vp, always bring a sweater.

Congratulations, you just predicted that playing VP always has the
potential to cause large negative swings in bankroll. The models
can be used to quantify the probability that you'll lose N units. That
isn't a guarantee that you'll lose, any more than predicting the
probability of coming out N units ahead is a guarantee of a win.
Still, you can bound the likely outcome in any way you like, and the
models allow us to compute the probability of staying within the
bounds you specify.

The models never give guarantees, and it isn't reasonable to expect
otherwise, because guarantees are from the realm of deterministic
results which reside outside the universe of probabilities. Perhaps
the key is to avoid thinking that "predict" and "predict with absolute
certainty" are the same concept.

···

On Friday 05 December 2003 12:41 am, Lawrence Boxer wrote:

But more importantly, "Variance can be variable". And, it will vary from player to player, with some variance there. <g>

All kidding aside, I know others have experienced the product of variance. I run up to LV once a month. I play approx 15,000 hands a trip. I've gone 12 months without a RF, and I've had three RF's on one trip. THAT's variance.

ADR

···

At 11:41 PM 12/4/2003, you wrote:

"variance giveth, variance taketh away"

Lawrence Boxer wrote:

snip

... And an infinite number of monkeys at typewriters
will write the Bible if given infinite time. ...

snip

'WILL' write the Bible?? ... or _PROBABLY_ will write the Bible? Not to mince words, but you sound like it is an absolute certainty, when it really isn't at all. It _approaches_ certainty, but it is definitely NOT certain to happen.

Just catching up on my emails and haven't had time to really digest the rest of your post ... and others ... but since the above comment just took a minute, I thought I'd toss it out there immediately.

Cheers.

Bill Velek