vpFREE2 Forums

Defining "Bad Year" was Re: Breaking Even

9. Defining "Bad Year" was Re: Breaking Even
Date: Mon Jan 5, 2009 10:55 am ((PST))

Can "Bad Year" be defined as playing a 99.5% game then adding cashback and comps
and still getting a 90% return (or worse)?

I still find it amazing the push for NEVER playing negative games when even
though you are playing that positive game (or close to it) there's a good chance
(and if you are "unlucky" a very good chance) that you will receive much less
than expected.
Sad to say, if you receive the much less than expected for too many consecutive
sessions your bankroll will be wiped out long before you can ever see that
"assumed to come" set of positive sessions that are supposed to balance out the
negative.

Even with a 6K bankroll, a serious negative roll can wipe out your bankroll
before ever getting near to expected returns and this is on quarters. A few
consecutive 80% returns is even a nasty little reminder that "expected" isn't
"guaranteed" and on the bell curve there's a position for EVERYONE.

Of course "expected" is not "guaranteed". Of course some people will do poorly playing games with an advantage for the player and some will do well playing games with an advantage for the house. But why would someone conclude that it is therefore NOT reasonable to choose the game with the player advantage???

If you want a guarantee, don't put your money into a game of chance (I'm not sure where you SHOULD put it these days for a "guarantee"!).

When you roll a pair of dice, there are 36 posibilities. Let's say you have a bet where you pay $1 for 17 of those possibilities and get paid $1 for the other 19. Let's say you have another bet where you pay $1 for 16 of those possibilities and get paid $1 for the other 20.

Are you saying that you would prefer to take the first bet rather than the second one, just because sometimes you'll lose money at the second one?

These (VP) are all games with an element of chance and an element of skill. The element of chance introduces some random variation in your return, sometimes causing you to lose when you have an advantage. That does not mean you should therefore play a game with greater odds against you.

Whether you will be lucky or unlucky is impossible to predict. If it is totally up to chance, and you have an equal probability of doing better than expected or worse than expected, the only thing you can control is a choice of game that determines what is "expected", so that the starting point from which the variation occurs is a better place to start from.

As for getting your bankroll wiped out before you arrive at the expected income, you need to learn how to manage bankroll. As your bankroll goes down, the amount of your bet should go down, so that you are not risking an amount disproportionate to your bankroll. As has been discussed at length here, most people underestimate the amount of bankroll they need to play at a given level in order to accomplish an acceptable risk of ruin. The only way to have a zero risk of ruin is to progressively bet less as your bankroll goes down (and even then you will eventually come up against the lower limit of what can be bet).

These are NOT games with NO element of chance that we are discussing - games like chess, for example. As long as there is an element of chance, you can do poorly no matter what your edge. Even a casino can have a losing day.

--BG

···

==================

I am NOT saying it is unreasonable to choose the BEST possible game.

I am saying it is monotonously annoying that people keeping pushing that the
ONLY games to play are positive or near positive games AS IF they are a
guaranteed win in the long run. Just because there are a CERTAIN number of
people that will fall into the desired side of the bell curve does not mean
that everyone will or that even one of those fortunate people will be me.
This is true regardless of the amount of practice, studying and focus on
positive games I make.

Some people even play for a combination of a hopefully good return + the
perks involved with gambling at casinos that other games of chance or skill
don't offer. I don't see anyone offering me a room to come play a chess
tournament and I have played in them before. But a VP tournament - yes they
are every month.

Chance is chance yes of course and if someone doesn't want to take the
chance then don't. BUT don't tell me that if I'm playing a 105% game over
the course of 3 years at 200,000 hands per year that I have a chance of even
breaking even. I say that because playing that number of hands has easily
yielded me about 80% and I'm sure I wasn't playing slots.

···

-----Original Message-----
  From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com]On Behalf Of
b.glazer@att.net
  Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 6:55 PM
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Defining "Bad Year" was Re: Breaking Even

  > 9. Defining "Bad Year" was Re: Breaking Even
  > Date: Mon Jan 5, 2009 10:55 am ((PST))
  >
  > Can "Bad Year" be defined as playing a 99.5% game then adding cashback
and comps
  > and still getting a 90% return (or worse)?
  >
  > I still find it amazing the push for NEVER playing negative games when
even
  > though you are playing that positive game (or close to it) there's a
good chance
  > (and if you are "unlucky" a very good chance) that you will receive much
less
  > than expected.
  > Sad to say, if you receive the much less than expected for too many
consecutive
  > sessions your bankroll will be wiped out long before you can ever see
that
  > "assumed to come" set of positive sessions that are supposed to balance
out the
  > negative.
  >
  > Even with a 6K bankroll, a serious negative roll can wipe out your
bankroll
  > before ever getting near to expected returns and this is on quarters. A
few
  > consecutive 80% returns is even a nasty little reminder that "expected"
isn't
  > "guaranteed" and on the bell curve there's a position for EVERYONE.
  >

  Of course "expected" is not "guaranteed". Of course some people will do
poorly playing games with an advantage for the player and some will do well
playing games with an advantage for the house. But why would someone
conclude that it is therefore NOT reasonable to choose the game with the
player advantage???

  If you want a guarantee, don't put your money into a game of chance (I'm
not sure where you SHOULD put it these days for a "guarantee"!).

  When you roll a pair of dice, there are 36 posibilities. Let's say you
have a bet where you pay $1 for 17 of those possibilities and get paid $1
for the other 19. Let's say you have another bet where you pay $1 for 16 of
those possibilities and get paid $1 for the other 20.

  Are you saying that you would prefer to take the first bet rather than the
second one, just because sometimes you'll lose money at the second one?

  These (VP) are all games with an element of chance and an element of
skill. The element of chance introduces some random variation in your
return, sometimes causing you to lose when you have an advantage. That does
not mean you should therefore play a game with greater odds against you.

  Whether you will be lucky or unlucky is impossible to predict. If it is
totally up to chance, and you have an equal probability of doing better than
expected or worse than expected, the only thing you can control is a choice
of game that determines what is "expected", so that the starting point from
which the variation occurs is a better place to start from.

  As for getting your bankroll wiped out before you arrive at the expected
income, you need to learn how to manage bankroll. As your bankroll goes
down, the amount of your bet should go down, so that you are not risking an
amount disproportionate to your bankroll. As has been discussed at length
here, most people underestimate the amount of bankroll they need to play at
a given level in order to accomplish an acceptable risk of ruin. The only
way to have a zero risk of ruin is to progressively bet less as your
bankroll goes down (and even then you will eventually come up against the
lower limit of what can be bet).

  These are NOT games with NO element of chance that we are discussing -
games like chess, for example. As long as there is an element of chance, you
can do poorly no matter what your edge. Even a casino can have a losing day.

  --BG

  ==================

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