There are very few who have heard of Knuth.
Todays bloatware is an abomination.
What I would like to see is for you to apply the RNG to select hands
from the constantly running RNG - then you might see hot/cold cycles.
I'm not convinced about simply selecting the RNG hands sequentially.
Of course you would. That is exactly what happens on a real VP machine.
Only, it's not the machine that is hot/cold, it is the player.
I suspect at least 1/3 if not more of the readers of this forum
probably think those of us who downplay the idea of hot/cold machines
are idiots. After all, all you have to do is play for any amount of
time and you will easily come to the conclusion that a MACHINE is hot
or cold.
By demonstrating that the basic RNG itself does not allow for extreme
variations then hopefully people will see that the ONLY remainding
factor is the short term variability inherent in random events.
By the way, I've heard many estimates as to how many numbers are
generated by an RNG every second. So, I decided to check it out for the
Knuth RNG on my 1 Ghz laptop. I programmed a loop to get the next
number and decrement a counter until it equalled zero. I included a
couple of subroutine calls as I didn't want to oversimplify the code. I
found that it came real close to 1 million numbers/second. Even with a
somewhat slower processor I would expect it to be no less than 100-200K
numbers/second in the more modern VP machines.
This translates into 200K possible hands in a single second. Given the
examples I gave earlier for 200K hands it would seem that RNG related
hot/cold cycles would be non-existent.
Dick
PS. Does anyone know what processor (and it's speed) is used in IGT
machines? I'd like to get more exact.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Royal Flusher" <royalflusher@...> wrote:
There are very few who have heard of Knuth.
Todays bloatware is an abomination.
What I would like to see is for you to apply the RNG to select hands
from the constantly running RNG - then you might see hot/cold cycles.
There are very few who have heard of Knuth.
By the way, I've heard many estimates as to how many numbers are
generated by an RNG every second. So, I decided to check it out for the
Knuth RNG on my 1 Ghz laptop. ..... >This translates into 200K possible hands in a single second. Given the
examples I gave earlier for 200K hands it would seem that RNG related
hot/cold cycles would be non-existent.
Not sure I believe the RNGs in modern slot machines use the algorithms from Knuth's books. There are better sources of entropy (randomness) that could easily be incorporated into a slot. Physical processes, such as thermal noise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_number_generator#Generating_random_numbers_from_physical_processes) could be the real source.
Here's one example that specifically mentions "gaming machines".
http://www.protego.se/pdf/r300a.pdf
The performance spec (top of page 3) lists 50 kbit/s. If you were to use 6 bits to choose a card (64 possible choices), then you could generate card choices at a rate of 8333/second. Assume 10 cards per hand, and it could deal 833 hands/second. Probably somewhat less when you add the logic around the RNG. No idea if this is really used, I just turfed it up with a little googling.
I've heard of Knuth, too. We used his RNG algorithms for ice crystal formation simulations we were doing way back about 1980. And, used his word processor, TeX, a lot in the mid and late 80's.
Jon
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Not sure I believe the RNGs in modern slot machines use the
algorithms from Knuth's books. There are better sources of entropy
(randomness) that could easily be incorporated into a slot. Physical
processes, such as thermal noise
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_number_generator#Generating_rando
m_numbers_from_physical_processes) could be the real source.
I looked into this a couple of years ago and found that these kind of
RNGs were a little costly compared to a few lines of code for a
programmed RNG. That may change in the future.
Also, from "Hacking the Casinos for a Million Bucks" ...
"Our hope was that the random number generator would be relatively
simple. And in this case in the early 90's, it was. I did a little
research and found out it was based on something that
Donald Knuth had written about in the 60's. These guys didn't
invent any of this stuff; they just took existing research on Monte
Carlo methods and things, and put it into their code.
We figured out exactly what algorithm they were using to generate
the cards; it's called a linear feedback shift register, and it was
a fairly good random number generator."
Here's one example that specifically mentions "gaming machines".
http://www.protego.se/pdf/r300a.pdf
The performance spec (top of page 3) lists 50 kbit/s. If you were
to use 6 bits to choose a card (64 possible choices), then you could
generate card choices at a rate of 8333/second. Assume 10 cards per
hand, and it could deal 833 hands/second. Probably somewhat less
when you add the logic around the RNG. No idea if this is really
used, I just turfed it up with a little googling.
It's possible that something like this is eventually used. Although
with the increasing speed of processors and multi-core technology it
still seems like the extra cost of special chips would be for little
or no advantage and reduce bottem line profits.
Dick
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Holdman" <jon@...> wrote:
About 5 Christmas's ago, my lovely wife got me a used Haywire slot machine (legal in Texas). We use it to play all the quarters we get in change and then roll them up and use them for play money in Vegas. We call it "The Bank of Haywire)
What I have observed is a definite hot/cold cycle. The machine has only paid the top (three wild) jackpot 3 times in the last 5 years. That tells you what the odds are.
Anyway, RNG's cannot be true RNG's without some sort of dissenable pattern. I have sat at a JOB 9/6 and "felt" is was hot or cold. Maybe it's just bulls**t or Quantum Physics ( see the DVD "What the Bleep do we know") but I get up and walk away from a cold machine. I was at a hot machine at Ceasars in July and won a few hundred, my wife at a cold one lost $50.
Usually, I leave Vegas with what I came with or a little ahead. I was there just before Thanksgiving and had a great time gambling at the Gold Coast. We stayed across the street at the Rio.
Chet
What I would like to see is for you to apply the RNG to select hands
from the constantly running RNG - then you might see hot/cold cycles.
I'm not convinced about simply selecting the RNG hands sequentially.
---------------------------------
Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real people who know.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What I have observed is a definite hot/cold cycle. The machine has
only paid the top (three wild) jackpot 3 times in the last 5 years.
That tells you what the odds are.
How do you tell the difference between a hot machine and a hot player?
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, chet Klyn <chetkl@...> wrote:
My lovely wife is one hot player, that's why I stay with her....
Chet
> What I have observed is a definite hot/cold cycle. The machine has
only paid the top (three wild) jackpot 3 times in the last 5 years.
That tells you what the odds are.
>
How do you tell the difference between a hot machine and a hot player?
mroejacks <rgmustain@att.net> wrote: --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, chet Klyn <chetkl@...> wrote:
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