vpFREE2 Forums

Death of the Optimums? Fiesta's separate identity

#1

Now that it takes TWENTY-FOUR-HUNDRED dollars coin-in to earn a comp
dollar on Optimums at Stations, do you suppose play at Optimums will
fall off? Does anyone think that this might signal the imminent demise
of the Optimums? Hard to believe that some bean-counter decided that
this point-slash was necessary--a dedicated professional, slamming the
Optimums at 1000 hands/hr playing FPDW, will earn $9.50 an hour, and
will now earn fifty cents in comps during that hour, instead of
$1...Stations management must be falling to their knees in thanks at
having such vigilant guardians to stave off all those advantage
players who would otherwise be raping the casino!!! (ahuck, ahuck)

The other question that arises is–now that Stations seems to be at
least tacitly acknowledging its blunder in destroying the Fiesta
brand's raison d'etre, does that mean it intends to turn the Fiesta
back into the Fiesta (or the Reserve back into the Reserve!!!), i.e.,
with lotsa fullpay VP and a decent slot club (not to mention a buffet
that serves food, unlike the present one)??? Or am I just dreaming?

#2

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tralfamidorgooglycrackers"
<tralfamidorgooglycrackers@...> wrote:

Now that it takes TWENTY-FOUR-HUNDRED dollars coin-in to earn a

comp

dollar on Optimums at Stations, do you suppose play at Optimums

will

fall off? Does anyone think that this might signal the imminent

demise

of the Optimums? Hard to believe that some bean-counter decided

that

this point-slash was necessary--a dedicated professional, slamming

the

Optimums at 1000 hands/hr playing FPDW, will earn $9.50 an hour,

and

will now earn fifty cents in comps during that hour, instead of
$1...Stations management must be falling to their knees in thanks

at

having such vigilant guardians to stave off all those advantage
players who would otherwise be raping the casino!!! (ahuck, ahuck)

The other question that arises is--now that Stations seems to be at
least tacitly acknowledging its blunder in destroying the Fiesta
brand's raison d'etre, does that mean it intends to turn the Fiesta
back into the Fiesta (or the Reserve back into the Reserve!!!),

i.e.,

with lotsa fullpay VP and a decent slot club (not to mention a

buffet

that serves food, unlike the present one)??? Or am I just

dreaming?

By then end of this year there will not be any 100% video poker
machines left in vegas and advantage play will be history. By
slashing the comp rate the average player
will avoid these machines reducing the handle which will give the
casino the justification for removing them. This is the end :frowning:

#3

Sdelwrote: By then end of this year there will not be any 100% video
poker
machines left in vegas and advantage play will be history.

Nonsense! Most of the best plays in Vegas have nothing to do with 100%
video poker, but rather less-than-100% games plus slot club plus
promotions. I expect there to be good opportunities in Vegas for years
to come.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

#4

Well, to each his own, then. The two markets I spend the least time
with are Local LV and Strip LV. Local LV I spend more time driving
than actually playing. I think you can do ok playing Local LV, but for
the most part it doesn't meet my standards. There is a lot of stuff if
you're happy with $40/hr, that part won't be changing anytime soon.
But I aim a lot higher, and Bob even higher than that.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bdancer@...> wrote:

Sdelwrote: By then end of this year there will not be any 100% video
poker
machines left in vegas and advantage play will be history.

Nonsense! Most of the best plays in Vegas have nothing to do with 100%
video poker, but rather less-than-100% games plus slot club plus
promotions. I expect there to be good opportunities in Vegas for years
to come.

#5

"Look up!", said Henny Penny to Ducky Lucky, "The sky is falling!"
...........and other fairy tales. {(O:
~Babe~

···

===========================================
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "sdel1001" <sdel1001@...> wrote:

By then end of this year there will not be any 100% video poker
machines left in vegas and advantage play will be history. By
slashing the comp rate the average player will avoid these machines
reducing the handle which will give the casino the justification for
removing them. This is the end :frowning:

#6

I would suspect, Bob, that your own opinions are somewhat biased on
the subject, as the existence of decent VP has been your raison d'etre
for some time. If VP becomes not worth playing, then....

Anyone familiar with the state of VP in Vegas over the last few years
can plausibly extrapolate the drastic reduction in the amount and
quantity of decent VP to its imminent disappearance altogether,
especially since it seems to have been proven that even "locals'"
casinos don't have to offer decent gambling in order to be patronized.

#7

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@...>
wrote:

"Look up!", said Henny Penny to Ducky Lucky, "The sky is falling!"
...........and other fairy tales. {(O:
~Babe~

By then end of this year there will not be any 100% video poker
machines left in vegas and advantage play will be history. By
slashing the comp rate the average player will avoid these machines
reducing the handle which will give the casino the justification for
removing them. This is the end :frowning:

It's pretty nasty of you to mock a perfectly valid apprehension. Would
you have, in similar fashion, sneered at someone who, for example, in
2001 said that four years from then, there would be no FPDW at the
Gold Coast or Orleans, which at that point had over 240 such machines?
Or that Stations would be giving comps on THEIR positive video poker
at the rate of .0416 ($24/point?) Or that 9/6 JOB would be all but
extinct on the Strip?

Actually, I'd be willing to bet that the above poster's prediction
will come true, maybe not that soon, but within a couple of years. And
whether or not it actually does come to pass, it's sure as hell
PLAUSIBLE!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "sdel1001" <sdel1001@> wrote:

#8

I’ve heard the predictions of doom and gloom every year since I moved to Las
Vegas 9 years ago.

No, things are not the same.

No, VP again will not die this year.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
tralfamidorgooglycrackers
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 5:36 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Death of the Optimums? Fiesta's separate identity

--- In HYPERLINK "mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com"vpFREE@yahoogroups.-com,
"jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@-...>
wrote:

"Look up!", said Henny Penny to Ducky Lucky, "The sky is falling!"
...........and other fairy tales. {(O:
~Babe~
============-=========-=========-=========-====
--- In HYPERLINK "mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com"vpFREE@yahoogroups.-com,

"sdel1001" <sdel1001@> wrote:

By then end of this year there will not be any 100% video poker
machines left in vegas and advantage play will be history. By
slashing the comp rate the average player will avoid these machines
reducing the handle which will give the casino the justification for
removing them. This is the end :frowning:

It's pretty nasty of you to mock a perfectly valid apprehension. Would
you have, in similar fashion, sneered at someone who, for example, in
2001 said that four years from then, there would be no FPDW at the
Gold Coast or Orleans, which at that point had over 240 such machines?
Or that Stations would be giving comps on THEIR positive video poker
at the rate of .0416 ($24/point?) Or that 9/6 JOB would be all but
extinct on the Strip?

Actually, I'd be willing to bet that the above poster's prediction
will come true, maybe not that soon, but within a couple of years. And
whether or not it actually does come to pass, it's sure as hell
PLAUSIBLE!

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.2/1273 - Release Date: 2/12/2008
9:31 AM

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.2/1273 - Release Date: 2/12/2008
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#9

I've heard the predictions of doom and gloom every year since I

moved to Las

Vegas 9 years ago.

No, things are not the same.

No, VP again will not die this year.

So, despite the fact that:

there are approximately 1/30th as many fullpay VP machines in Vegas
as there were nine years ago, depsite the fact that there are dozens
more casinos;

that the best cashback you can find on decent VP is one-tenth of one
percent of total action;

that it takes four to ten times as much action to get a comp as it
did nine years ago;

that it is extremely difficult to find on the Strip even 9/6 DB, 8/5
BP, Ugly Ducks, or any such 99%-minus games, especially in .25 or
lower denoms, to say nothing of 9/6 JOB or any POSITIVE game such as
10/7 DB, and nine years ago there was a plethora of such
opportunities;

the "predictions of doom and gloom" were incorrect, and have been
since the undeservedly unheralded arrival of yourself on the scene.

LOL. They were incorrect, all right...no one imagined that things
could ever get this bad.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Randy" <randyc@...> wrote:

#10

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tralfamidorgooglycrackers"
<tralfamidorgooglycrackers@...> wrote:

>
> I've heard the predictions of doom and gloom every year since I
moved to Las
> Vegas 9 years ago.
>
> No, things are not the same.
>
> No, VP again will not die this year.
>
>
>
So, despite the fact that:

there are approximately 1/30th as many fullpay VP machines in Vegas
as there were nine years ago, depsite the fact that there are

dozens

more casinos;

that the best cashback you can find on decent VP is one-tenth of

one

percent of total action;

that it takes four to ten times as much action to get a comp as it
did nine years ago;

that it is extremely difficult to find on the Strip even 9/6 DB,

8/5

BP, Ugly Ducks, or any such 99%-minus games, especially in .25 or
lower denoms, to say nothing of 9/6 JOB or any POSITIVE game such

as

10/7 DB, and nine years ago there was a plethora of such
opportunities;

the "predictions of doom and gloom" were incorrect, and have been
since the undeservedly unheralded arrival of yourself on the scene.

LOL. They were incorrect, all right...no one imagined that things
could ever get this bad.

Most of this may be true but it still doesn't change the FACT that
positive VP will still be around at the end of the year.

I do believe that was that the question being addressed.

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Randy" <randyc@> wrote:

#11

If you couldn’t imagine that with the proliferation of information from the
Internet that many new people would join the ranks of the AP and that
casinos would eventually cut back, well, it seemed pretty obvious to me. But
somehow, my ER for 2007 was the highest since I’ve been here. Do I play the
same “style” that I played back then? No. I have adapted to what works today
as many other people are doing. You just have to do some of the legwork
yourself instead of relying on the Internet and others to spoon feed the
info to you.

Funny, reminds me of 9 years ago before vpFREE, etc.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
tralfamidorgooglycrackers
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 12:09 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Death of the Optimums? Fiesta's separate identity

--- In HYPERLINK "mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com"vpFREE@yahoogroups.-com,
"Randy" <randyc@...> wrote:

I've heard the predictions of doom and gloom every year since I

moved to Las

Vegas 9 years ago.

No, things are not the same.

No, VP again will not die this year.

So, despite the fact that:

there are approximately 1/30th as many fullpay VP machines in Vegas
as there were nine years ago, depsite the fact that there are dozens
more casinos;

that the best cashback you can find on decent VP is one-tenth of one
percent of total action;

that it takes four to ten times as much action to get a comp as it
did nine years ago;

that it is extremely difficult to find on the Strip even 9/6 DB, 8/5
BP, Ugly Ducks, or any such 99%-minus games, especially in .25 or
lower denoms, to say nothing of 9/6 JOB or any POSITIVE game such as
10/7 DB, and nine years ago there was a plethora of such
opportunities;

the "predictions of doom and gloom" were incorrect, and have been
since the undeservedly unheralded arrival of yourself on the scene.

LOL. They were incorrect, all right...no one imagined that things
could ever get this bad.

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.2/1273 - Release Date: 2/12/2008
9:31 AM

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1276 - Release Date: 2/13/2008
9:41 AM

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#12

Most of this may be true but it still doesn't change the FACT that
positive VP will still be around at the end of the year.

I do believe that was that the question being addressed.

Dick

Well, since you lack a crystal ball, or some other way to tell the
future, calling your PREDICTION that something WILL happen a FACT is
kind of silly.

Since you missed my point (Goodyear-blimp-sized though it was), it was
that no one imagined things would get as bad as they are now--so your
inability to imagine that they won't get even worse isn't very
significant.

#13

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tralfamidorgooglycrackers"
<tralfamidorgooglycrackers@...> wrote:

> Most of this may be true but it still doesn't change the FACT

that

> positive VP will still be around at the end of the year.
>
> I do believe that was that the question being addressed.
>
> Dick
>
Well, since you lack a crystal ball, or some other way to tell the
future, calling your PREDICTION that something WILL happen a FACT

is

kind of silly.

See me in Dec. and I will point out it was CLEARLY a FACT. No one
needs to have a crystal ball to realize the hundreds of full pay
machines won't disappear by that time. If you think I'm wrong, name
the amount you wish to bet.

Since you missed my point (Goodyear-blimp-sized though it was), it

was

that no one imagined things would get as bad as they are now--so

your

inability to imagine that they won't get even worse isn't very
significant.

I understood your point and even pointed out that it was mainly true.
Unfortunately, you either missed the original question or decided to
answer something else. That is fine, but but it doesn't change the
FACT that you were saying something completely different.

Dick

#14

See me in Dec. and I will point out it was CLEARLY a FACT. No one
needs to have a crystal ball to realize the hundreds of full pay
machines won't disappear by that time. If you think I'm wrong,

name

the amount you wish to bet.

Let me see if I can point this out even MORE simply.

Something that MAY happen in the future is a POSSIBILITY.

If it does in fact happen, it is then, and only then, a factual
occurence.

A prediction that it WILL happen, even though the predictor is
REALLY REALLY SURE, is still not a fact.....merely a prediction.

In any case, it isn't much of an extrapolation, given the history of
the last ten or so years, to say that VP by this magical marker of
next December will be considerably worse than it is now. There may
indeed be two or three fullpay machines left by then. So you might
win such a bet, which you can feel free to make with yourself.

#15

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tralfamidorgooglycrackers"
<tralfamidorgooglycrackers@...> wrote:

> See me in Dec. and I will point out it was CLEARLY a FACT. No one
> needs to have a crystal ball to realize the hundreds of full pay
> machines won't disappear by that time. If you think I'm wrong,
name
> the amount you wish to bet.

>>>Let me see if I can point this out even MORE simply.

Something that MAY happen in the future is a POSSIBILITY.

If it does in fact happen, it is then, and only then, a factual
occurence.

Some things can be predicted with enough certainty that they can be
considered FACTs. Personally, if something is 99.999999999999999999%
certain I will call it a fact. You can do as you please.

A prediction that it WILL happen, even though the predictor is
REALLY REALLY SURE, is still not a fact.....merely a prediction.

In any case, it isn't much of an extrapolation, given the history

of

the last ten or so years, to say that VP by this magical marker of
next December will be considerably worse than it is now. There may
indeed be two or three fullpay machines left by then. So you might
win such a bet, which you can feel free to make with yourself.

I bet there are still hundreds of full pay machines available. How
much do you wish to bet now?

Dick

#16

Some things can be predicted with enough certainty that they can be
considered FACTs. Personally, if something is 99.999999999999999999%
certain I will call it a fact. You can do as you please.

Or, some people can be so really really really really really really
sure that something will happen, that they consider it a certainty--
even to the point of bridging the gap, mentally, between NOW and the
FUTURE. Obviously, we have different opinions about this possibility--
but just as obviously, we have different dictionaries in our houses as
well. Therefore, this is a futile argument ("futile", I'm hoping,
means at least roughly the same thing in your dictionary as in the one
the rest of us use, so you'll understand what I mean).

#17

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tralfamidorgooglycrackers"
<tralfamidorgooglycrackers@...> wrote:

> Some things can be predicted with enough certainty that they can be
> considered FACTs. Personally, if something is

99.999999999999999999%

> certain I will call it a fact. You can do as you please.

Or, some people can be so really really really really really really
sure that something will happen, that they consider it a certainty--
even to the point of bridging the gap, mentally, between NOW and the
FUTURE.

That's right. I guess I get this from theoretical physics, and other
working sciences. Once a "theory" becomes accepted it is treated as
FACT. This occurs when overwhelming evidence supports that theory.

Obviously, we have different opinions about this possibility--

I don't see how any reasonably intelligent person could think ALL the
full pay VP machines would disappear in less than a year.

Dick

#18

That's right. I guess I get this from theoretical physics, and other
working sciences. Once a "theory" becomes accepted it is treated as
FACT. This occurs when overwhelming evidence supports that theory.

> Obviously, we have different opinions about this possibility--

I don't see how any reasonably intelligent person could think ALL

the

full pay VP machines would disappear in less than a year.

Dick

Tut, tut, tut, Dick. Don't put words in anyone's mouth. YOU are the
one making predictions with an unjustified air of total certainty.
Others have said that it's POSSIBLE. We (unlike some others) are not
couching our OPINIONS as FACTS. Neither your prediction, my
prediction, or anyone else's predictions will EVER be FACTS, even if
subsequent events prove that one or more of those predictions was
correct. That does NOT make those predictions, retroactively, factual.
To help you understand this, my prediction that the New York Mets will
win the 2008 World Series isn't a FACT (even if I really really really
really think they will), and it STILL won't be a FACT even if they DO
win the World Series. Does that help you understand?

As far as your theory---it ain't "accepted as fact", since some of us
disagree with you, and it the evidence ain't "overwhelming", except to
support our contention that positive VP might soon become extinct,
that being a logical extrapolation of all that's happened so far.

If you feel very very very very certain that there will still be
positive VP in Vegas by the end of the year, or this time next year,
or the year 2047, I say, bully! bully! I hope you're right! However,
there are a number of other things that people feel very very very
very certain of, and turn out to be incorrect--so I take no
consolation from your certainty.

#19

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tralfamidorgooglycrackers"
<tralfamidorgooglycrackers@...> wrote:

Tut, tut, tut, Dick. Don't put words in anyone's mouth. YOU are the
one making predictions with an unjustified air of total certainty.

It's only "unjustified" if you haven't examined all the evidence.

Others have said that it's POSSIBLE. We (unlike some others) are

not

couching our OPINIONS as FACTS. Neither your prediction, my
prediction, or anyone else's predictions will EVER be FACTS, even

if

subsequent events prove that one or more of those predictions was
correct. That does NOT make those predictions, retroactively,

factual.

I see the point went right over your head. Try to understand what
OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE means.

To help you understand this, my prediction that the New York Mets

will

win the 2008 World Series isn't a FACT (even if I really really

really

really think they will), and it STILL won't be a FACT even if they

DO

win the World Series. Does that help you understand?

I understand that you are trying to compare two totally different
situations. One has OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE to back it up and the other
has a small chance of coming true. Santana never won a WS for the
Twins, but I did enjoy attending his personal best strikeout game
this past summer.

As far as your theory---it ain't "accepted as fact", since some of

us

disagree with you, and it the evidence ain't "overwhelming", except

to

support our contention that positive VP might soon become extinct,
that being a logical extrapolation of all that's happened so far.

Soon is not the issue at hand. The statement was BY THE END OF THE
YEAR.

If you feel very very very very certain that there will still be
positive VP in Vegas by the end of the year, or this time next

year,

or the year 2047, I say, bully! bully! I hope you're right!

However,

there are a number of other things that people feel very very very
very certain of, and turn out to be incorrect--so I take no
consolation from your certainty.

Try to get your arms around what I stated. The Big Bang is considered
a FACT by cosmologists. Evolution is considered a FACT by
anthropologists, etal. There are many, many other examples but I'm
sure you will simply ignore them too.

#20

Try to get your arms around what I stated. The Big Bang is

considered

a FACT by cosmologists. Evolution is considered a FACT by
anthropologists, etal. There are many, many other examples but I'm
sure you will simply ignore them too.

Actually, both of those things are considered, as well as CALLED, by
science...THEORIES.

Don't quote science if you don't know science....it only makes you
look foolish. Now, this debate is over. Enjoy.