vpFREE2 Forums

Cycle differences for different games.

#1

Hello all. Bob Dancer, in his book, claims that the number of hands in a Royal Flush cycle is around 40,000, I believe for JoB , but that doesn't matter. What matters is the comment that this cycle , i.e., the number of hands on average over infinity that need to be played to get a RF varies between games. I've been thinking about that off and on for a couple of hours and simply cannot see how that could be true.

The same deck of cards or simulated cards is used in each game and each game has a RNG. And by definition, every RNG is as close to random as we humans can make it. So , if we take just one RNG and deal hands irrespective of the particular game we are playing, the RF cycle should be consistent.

Is the RF cycle or for that matter any paying cycle different for different games because for perfect play, we play some hands differently depending on the game and that causes the fluctuations in the cycle's for an RF in different games?

Thanks, Doc

George B. 'Doc' Jump
Operations Manager
CyberWurks
www.cyberwurks.net
docjump@yahoo.com (emergency email)
A Division of DJ Systems, Inc.
28921 Aerie Road
Valley Center, CA 92082
760-749-2975 (office)
760-749-2954 (fax)
714-458-3573 (cell)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

Exactly right. For perfect or imperfect play, strategy changes will cause a difference in the royal (or any hand) cycle.
Skip

docjump wrote:

Is the RF cycle or for that matter any paying cycle different for different games because for perfect play, we play some hands differently depending on the game

#3

docjump wrote:

Is the RF cycle or for that matter any paying cycle different for
different games because for perfect play, we play some hands
differently depending on the game and that causes the fluctuations in
the cycle's for an RF in different games?

Your gut's speaking to you in a trustworthy manner on this.

For example, the royal cycle in 10/7 DB is significantly higher than
in 9/6 Jacks because (among other reasons) you sometimes hold a 4 card
flush over 4 card royal in DB, as well as 3 card flush over 2 card
royal, reducing royal frequency vs JB.

The thing that is interesting is that if you play one game, say 10/7
DB, with the strategy of another (e.g. 9/6 JB), you get the same
expected hand distribution playing 10/7 DB as you do 9/6 JB.

This fact provides a means by which, through some basic calculations,
you can determine your ER when playing a game by the strategy of
another game (for example, 10/7 DB with 9/6 Jacks strategy yields 99.63%).

- Harry

#4

<<Is the RF cycle or for that matter any paying cycle different for
different games because for perfect play, we play some hands differently
depending on the game and that causes the fluctuations in the cycle's for an
RF in different games?>>

Yes, although I think "variation" is a better word than "fluctuation." For a
given strategy, the RF cycle is constant.

Cogno

#5

As a few other people have responded, you are correct.

This is also the basic premise for the strategy behind playing
Progressives. As the payout for the Royal increases, the expected
value of every partial Royal increase, which causes us to alter our
strategy in an effort to reduce the amount of hands (in the long
run) between Royals.

The following is an article that I wrote a while back that explains
this a bit more:

http://www.casinocitytimes.com/article.cfm?
ContentAndContributorID=11439

Hello all. Bob Dancer, in his book, claims that the number of

hands in a Royal Flush cycle is around 40,000, I believe for JoB ,
but that doesn't matter. What matters is the comment that this
cycle , i.e., the number of hands on average over infinity that need
to be played to get a RF varies between games. I've been thinking
about that off and on for a couple of hours and simply cannot see
how that could be true.

The same deck of cards or simulated cards is used in each game and

each game has a RNG. And by definition, every RNG is as close to
random as we humans can make it. So , if we take just one RNG and
deal hands irrespective of the particular game we are playing, the
RF cycle should be consistent.

Is the RF cycle or for that matter any paying cycle different for

different games because for perfect play, we play some hands
differently depending on the game and that causes the fluctuations
in the cycle's for an RF in different games?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "docjump" <docjump@...> wrote:

Thanks, Doc

George B. 'Doc' Jump
Operations Manager
CyberWurks
www.cyberwurks.net
docjump@... (emergency email)
A Division of DJ Systems, Inc.
28921 Aerie Road
Valley Center, CA 92082
760-749-2975 (office)
760-749-2954 (fax)
714-458-3573 (cell)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#6

The most obvious example of your question involves the wild card
games. Instead of holding say a Ace, and a Jack suited or any other
number of combinations of high cards sometimes the perfect strategy is
to redraw all 5. Thus the Royal frequency is increased significantly
in these games. (like to around one in 45,000) A fact I witnessed while
playing FPDW at Binions when a guy at the next machine held two to a
Royal which my strategy chart listed as a bad hold, but he got the
Royal as he said he always held two to the Royal.

Lets get some Royals,
Beachstu

Is the RF cycle or for that matter any paying cycle different for

different games because for perfect play, we play some hands
differently depending on the game and that causes the fluctuations in
the cycle's for an RF in different games?

···

Thanks, Doc

#7

This must be the same guy that I saw playing at the EC, on a Downtown
DW machine. He held a lone Ace and DROPPED a deuce. When he saw the
horrified expression on my face as I glanced at his screen, he
explained that he "always went for the natural RF, and couldn't get it
if he held a deuce!" Incidentally, he did not score the Royal.

I kept my mouth shut, and gave silent thanks for the idiots, who
permit some low denom. 100% play to continue to be offered.
~Babe~

···

===========================================
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "beachstu" <beachstu@...> wrote:

........guy playing FPDW at Binions when a guy at the next machine
held two to a Royal which my strategy chart listed as a bad hold, but
he got the Royal as he said he always held two to the Royal.

Beachstu