Cut off at Sam's Town

[randi]

Today I went to the club booth to find out why I did not receive my monthly mailer. I was told that I was no longer eligible for mail and that I should talk to Tim Rambo about it. Tim Rambo told me that based on the machines I play and my playing results, it did not make sense for him to send me promotional mail. He said I could continue to play but would not receive any promotional mail. I was shocked and the more I thought about, the more it did not make sense. He was actually panelizing me for the machines I used to play. That is Sam's Town double deuces, One Eye Jacks, 10/7 DDbonus triple play and Super Aces multistrike. All of these games are gone and the only positive full pay game left is Deuces Wild ( exception, they still have 10/7 double bonus which gives 1/2 points). I hardly play these machines because they are too slow and boring. So lately I have been playing 9/7 double bonus progressives, triple play 7/5 super Aces, and 8/5 bonus poker triple play (all quarter games). Since all of these games are negative at reset, the fact that I may hit the royal flush when it is high takes no money away from the casino since the progressive is feed by other players money. In fact it is to the casinos advantage to get as may people as possible to play these machine and it does no matter who hits the royal.
    I now have to reevaluate my play at Sam's Town. On thing for sure I will be playing a lot less at Sam's Town.

Randi.d

[Randy2]

At least you have the option to play. I know a Video Poker Player who was
86'd from Sam's Town for offering no "value" to the casino.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
randi.d
Sent: 2008-11-01 19:01
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Cut off at Sam's Town

Today I went to the club booth to find out why I did not receive my
monthly mailer. I was told that I was no longer eligible for mail and that I

should talk to Tim Rambo about it. Tim Rambo told me that based on the
machines I play and my playing results, it did not make sense for him to
send me promotional mail. He said I could continue to play but would not
receive any promotional mail. I was shocked and the more I thought about,
the more it did not make sense. He was actually panelizing me for the
machines I used to play. That is Sam's Town double deuces, One Eye Jacks,
10/7 DDbonus triple play and Super Aces multistrike. All of these games are
gone and the only positive full pay game left is Deuces Wild ( exception,
they still have 10/7 double bonus which gives 1/2 points). I hardly play
these machines because they are too slow and boring. So lately I have been
playing 9/7 double bonus progressives, triple play 7/5 super Aces, and 8/5
bonus poker triple play (all quarter games). Since all of these games are
negative at reset, the fact that I may hit the royal flush when it is high
takes no money away from the casino since the progressive is feed by other
players money. In fact it is to the casinos advantage to get as may people
as possible to play these machine and it does no matter who hits the royal.
I now have to reevaluate my play at Sam's Town. On thing for sure I will
be playing a lot less at Sam's Town.

Randi.d

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[eecounter]

        Today I went to the club booth to find out why I did not

receive my monthly mailer. I was told that I was no longer eligible
for mail and that I should talk to Tim Rambo about it......

Unfortunately, this scene is becoming more and more common. If it
makes you feel any better, you have a lot of company in the "mail
backoff" club; a lot more than I think is generally discussed on
this site. Casinos seem to be running really scared right now, and
they are clamping down on just about anyone who doesn't fit
the "compete sucker" profile.

When I was playing a lot of blackjack, every good blackjack player I
talked to - and I do mean EVERY single one - had been tossed out of
a casino at least once. Most had been thrown out many times. I can
see the day coming soon when every good VP player has been thrown
out or put on the no mail list of at least one casino. Casino
management types can't stand the thought of someone beating them
fair and square. They take it as a personal offense.

EE

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "randi.d" <randi66@...> wrote:

[pesach_kremen1]

Read the new book Casino-ology and even Bill Zender discusses how stupid some of these casino procedures have become. Boyd's stock closed at about $5.39 today. They must really know how to run the place. It was over $50 a few years ago. I play multistrike but with the recent over kill downgrade (6/5 on super Aces, was 8/5) they have lost me for the most part. Many pplaces still have 7/5 super Aces (99%) which is a fair compromise between casino revenue and a good player opportunity to last. Email me privately to see why I will not step in ot the place after Thanksgiving until the first of the year due their incredible lack of diversity.

···

--- On Mon, 11/3/08, eecounter <eecounter@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: eecounter <eecounter@hotmail.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Cut off at Sam's Town
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 7:03 AM

            --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups. com, "randi.d" <randi66@... > wrote:

        Today I went to the club booth to find out why I did not

receive my monthly mailer. I was told that I was no longer eligible

for mail and that I should talk to Tim Rambo about it......

>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>

Unfortunately, this scene is becoming more and more common. If it

makes you feel any better, you have a lot of company in the "mail

backoff" club; a lot more than I think is generally discussed on

this site. Casinos seem to be running really scared right now, and

they are clamping down on just about anyone who doesn't fit

the "compete sucker" profile.

When I was playing a lot of blackjack, every good blackjack player I

talked to - and I do mean EVERY single one - had been tossed out of

a casino at least once. Most had been thrown out many times. I can

see the day coming soon when every good VP player has been thrown

out or put on the no mail list of at least one casino. Casino

management types can't stand the thought of someone beating them

fair and square. They take it as a personal offense.

EE

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[tomflush1]

Randi - I agree with you. I just completed a 3 night Gold Card stay with them, but its going to be my last , as I now need a new home. Sams has about the same identity as the Cannery East ( which is not saying much - unless you like industrialized gaming )
If you compare the Sams inventory from 18 months ago , its like night and day:
full pay Multistrikes - gone
full pay quarter super aces - gone
country western music and western theme's - gone ( Can't figure out why Sheplers is still there ! )
Sams Deuces - gone
50C double bonus - gone
$1 double bonus - down to 2 machines
Harvest Cafe - gone, replaced by inferior TGIF's.
progressive multi-suit royals with 8/5 bonus - gone
Full pay bonus deuces ( 50C machines ) - gone
Buffet quality reduced
An upstairs gaming area with some exciting stuff - almost gone, inventory drastically reduced

On the positive you can say about Sams:
- Some of the progressives do go positive, but thats hit and miss
- have full pay deuces , but too slow to enjoy playing and very few points are earned on these
- have loose deuce, but down to only 3 machines
- now have wheel poker, but best game selection is 97%
- plenty of new VP machines, but if you find 7/5 bonus on them consider that a gift

I visited a few blocks north to Boulder Station and I thought I walked into Video Poker Heaven ! Now BS has its problems too by discounting full pay machine points 1 - 4 , but heck - at least they have an exciting and playable wide variety of games.

best wishes...Tom

···

----- Original Message -----

       Today I went to the club booth to find out why I did not receive my
monthly mailer. I was told that I was no longer eligible for mail and that I
should talk to Tim Rambo about it. Tim Rambo told me that based on the
machines I play and my playing results, it did not make sense for him to
send me promotional mail. He said I could continue to play but would not
receive any promotional mail. I was shocked and the more I thought about,
the more it did not make sense. He was actually panelizing me for the
machines I used to play. That is Sam's Town double deuces, One Eye Jacks,
10/7 DDbonus triple play and Super Aces multistrike. All of these games are
gone and the only positive full pay game left is Deuces Wild ( exception,
they still have 10/7 double bonus which gives 1/2 points). I hardly play
these machines because they are too slow and boring. So lately I have been
playing 9/7 double bonus progressives, triple play 7/5 super Aces, and 8/5
bonus poker triple play (all quarter games). Since all of these games are
negative at reset, the fact that I may hit the royal flush when it is high
takes no money away from the casino since the progressive is feed by other
players money. In fact it is to the casinos advantage to get as may people
as possible to play these machine and it does no matter who hits the royal.
   I now have to reevaluate my play at Sam's Town. On thing for sure I will
be playing a lot less at Sam's Town.

Randi.d

[pesach_kremen1]

Agreed, they are losing it again. Years ago when they had a good comp program they changed things for the worse, thus any surprise? They now have a non smoking section but it is flawed in that there are no 100% games there (best is 8/5 BP) , they allow smoking in part of Keno (same area) and the adjacent bar. They can't seem to get anything right. It is a shame with good hosts, easy transit access as well as there own bus system, and Gold Cards, but if the expected losses due the inventory exceeds the benefits, there are better places to play and stay. BYD closed at $5.21 yesterday.Serves them right!

···

--- On Sat, 11/8/08, tomflush <tomflush@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
From: tomflush <tomflush@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Cut off at Sam's Town
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 6:16 AM

            Randi - I agree with you. I just completed a 3 night Gold Card stay with

them, but its going to be my last , as I now need a new home. Sams has

about the same identity as the Cannery East ( which is not saying much -

unless you like industrialized gaming )

If you compare the Sams inventory from 18 months ago , its like night and

day:

full pay Multistrikes - gone

full pay quarter super aces - gone

country western music and western theme's - gone ( Can't figure out why

Sheplers is still there ! )

Sams Deuces - gone

50C double bonus - gone

$1 double bonus - down to 2 machines

Harvest Cafe - gone, replaced by inferior TGIF's.

progressive multi-suit royals with 8/5 bonus - gone

Full pay bonus deuces ( 50C machines ) - gone

Buffet quality reduced

An upstairs gaming area with some exciting stuff - almost gone, inventory

drastically reduced

On the positive you can say about Sams:

- Some of the progressives do go positive, but thats hit and miss

- have full pay deuces , but too slow to enjoy playing and very few points

are earned on these

- have loose deuce, but down to only 3 machines

- now have wheel poker, but best game selection is 97%

- plenty of new VP machines, but if you find 7/5 bonus on them consider that

a gift

I visited a few blocks north to Boulder Station and I thought I walked into

Video Poker Heaven ! Now BS has its problems too by discounting full pay

machine points 1 - 4 , but heck - at least they have an exciting and

playable wide variety of games.

best wishes...Tom

----- Original Message -----

       Today I went to the club booth to find out why I did not receive my

monthly mailer. I was told that I was no longer eligible for mail and that

I

should talk to Tim Rambo about it. Tim Rambo told me that based on the

machines I play and my playing results, it did not make sense for him to

send me promotional mail. He said I could continue to play but would not

receive any promotional mail. I was shocked and the more I thought about,

the more it did not make sense. He was actually panelizing me for the

machines I used to play. That is Sam's Town double deuces, One Eye Jacks,

10/7 DDbonus triple play and Super Aces multistrike. All of these games

are

gone and the only positive full pay game left is Deuces Wild ( exception,

they still have 10/7 double bonus which gives 1/2 points). I hardly play

these machines because they are too slow and boring. So lately I have been

playing 9/7 double bonus progressives, triple play 7/5 super Aces, and 8/5

bonus poker triple play (all quarter games). Since all of these games are

negative at reset, the fact that I may hit the royal flush when it is

high

takes no money away from the casino since the progressive is feed by other

players money. In fact it is to the casinos advantage to get as may people

as possible to play these machine and it does no matter who hits the

royal.

   I now have to reevaluate my play at Sam's Town. On thing for sure I

will

be playing a lot less at Sam's Town.

Randi.d

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Robert3]

Although I'll agree with both of you that ST is going through changes,
so is everyone else. Since I only get to go there about every three
months, and everything is comped including a suite, it's tough to try
somewhere else unless it's another Coast property like the Orleans.

I don't see how they could close that Harvest coffee shop, as it was
very good and I liked their specials. That coffee shop in the park
wasn't as good as the Harvest. I got to try TGIFridays breakfast for
free, and it wasn't bad at all. But now they say they are opening
Billy Bob's from 11 pm to 6 am, so I guess they must be closing the
park coffee shop for good. Wonder what's going to open in it's place?

[WP_SF]

stupid some of these casino procedures have become. Boyd's stock
closed at about $5.39 today. They must really know how to run the
place. It was over $50 a few years ago. I play multistrike but with
the recent over kill downgrade (6/5 on super Aces, was 8/5) they have
lost me for the most part. Many pplaces still have 7/5 super Aces
(99%) which is a fair compromise between casino revenue and a good
player opportunity to last. Email me privately to see why I will not
step in ot the place after Thanksgiving until the first of the year
due their incredible lack of diversity.

You're going to see more backings off in the near future. Many casino
operators have some serious financial problems right now, and this has
caused them, finally, to turn their attention to video poker players,
for better or worse.

I know Zender a little, his problem is that he's not the greatest
politician, which is more important to surviving on the Strip than
actually knowing how to protect the games. When he ran the Aladdin, no
one had better hold percentages, and he had loose games with fleas
attacking his double deck blackjack game. I think his numbers spoke
for themselves.

The slots equivalent of this was HET execs arguing with Jack Binion
after HET bought Jack out that his player reinvestment was too high.
This is a hilarious argument considering no operator made more money
per capita ever than Jack Binion-and was proven in practice after HET
took over Horseshoe and altered player reinvestment. While Gary
Loveman has a PhD in behaviorial psychology and understands people as
well as anyone in this business, Jack understands gamblers better than
anyone.

I heard recently of one large denom player who got backed off, and
frankly, this is a close call as to whether I'd deal to him or not. If
the casino had protected its procedures properly, there would be no
issue, the guy would be a marginally profitable customer. The scary
thing is that you have slot ops suits making these calls and don't
have any clue how to use the data in front of them. Or know what's
causing the situation. It's obviously the player's fault he could do
no wrong at this casino the last 18 months or so, whether it's hitting
a $100K royal to dominating the drawings. It never occurred to the
casino that $25 denom players generally do well in drawings (wonder
why? duh!).

Then you have guys like Tim Rambo (see Sam's Town threads), who is
apparently making calls on backing off quarter players. While it
sounds like he's probably making the right decision, let me repeat
myself...quarter players? Something is seriously wrong with how
resources in a casino are allocated if you are devoting a lot of time
to determining if some guy betting $1.25/hand on an ancient coin
dropper is a threat to the casino bankroll. It's much more efficient
to just pull the games. Backing off someone with an EV of maybe $20/hr
after comps is no way to improve your stock price.

When I'm in Vegas, and playing the locals stores, I see the same folks
week after week banging away on quarter FP stuff, or maybe dollars. I
feel a little sorry for them, especially the guys who have been
playing over 10 years and still are playing quarters. Something's
clearly not right with that picture.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, pesach kremen <royalflush2222@...> wrote:

Read the new book Casino-ology and even Bill Zender discusses how

[whitejeeps]

Post is right in the money. Funny how so many managers think the best
way to improve profits is to squeeze more $$ out of customers. Geeze,
the suits don't even want to give a free box of popcorn and forget
CB. Look into some of the high limit rooms; ghost towns. The suit
looks at the 2 players playing the $5 7/5 JOB and pats himself on the
back; what a nice house win. He smiles and walks away knowning he did
a good job.

Jeep

-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "paladingamingllc"
<paladingamingllc@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, pesach kremen <royalflush2222@>

wrote:

>
> Read the new book Casino-ology and even Bill Zender discusses how
stupid some of these casino procedures have become. Boyd's stock
closed at about $5.39 today. They must really know how to run the
place. It was over $50 a few years ago. I play multistrike but with
the recent over kill downgrade (6/5 on super Aces, was 8/5) they

have

lost me for the most part. Many pplaces still have 7/5 super Aces
(99%) which is a fair compromise between casino revenue and a good
player opportunity to last. Email me privately to see why I will

not

step in ot the place after Thanksgiving until the first of the year
due their incredible lack of diversity.

You're going to see more backings off in the near future. Many

casino

operators have some serious financial problems right now, and this

has

caused them, finally, to turn their attention to video poker

players,

for better or worse.

I know Zender a little, his problem is that he's not the greatest
politician, which is more important to surviving on the Strip than
actually knowing how to protect the games. When he ran the Aladdin,

no

one had better hold percentages, and he had loose games with fleas
attacking his double deck blackjack game. I think his numbers spoke
for themselves.

The slots equivalent of this was HET execs arguing with Jack Binion
after HET bought Jack out that his player reinvestment was too high.
This is a hilarious argument considering no operator made more money
per capita ever than Jack Binion-and was proven in practice after

HET

took over Horseshoe and altered player reinvestment. While Gary
Loveman has a PhD in behaviorial psychology and understands people

as

well as anyone in this business, Jack understands gamblers better

than

anyone.

I heard recently of one large denom player who got backed off, and
frankly, this is a close call as to whether I'd deal to him or not.

If

the casino had protected its procedures properly, there would be no
issue, the guy would be a marginally profitable customer. The scary
thing is that you have slot ops suits making these calls and don't
have any clue how to use the data in front of them. Or know what's
causing the situation. It's obviously the player's fault he could do
no wrong at this casino the last 18 months or so, whether it's

hitting

a $100K royal to dominating the drawings. It never occurred to the
casino that $25 denom players generally do well in drawings (wonder
why? duh!).

Then you have guys like Tim Rambo (see Sam's Town threads), who is
apparently making calls on backing off quarter players. While it
sounds like he's probably making the right decision, let me repeat
myself...quarter players? Something is seriously wrong with how
resources in a casino are allocated if you are devoting a lot of

time

to determining if some guy betting $1.25/hand on an ancient coin
dropper is a threat to the casino bankroll. It's much more efficient
to just pull the games. Backing off someone with an EV of maybe

$20/hr

after comps is no way to improve your stock price.

When I'm in Vegas, and playing the locals stores, I see the same

folks

week after week banging away on quarter FP stuff, or maybe dollars.

I

···

feel a little sorry for them, especially the guys who have been
playing over 10 years and still are playing quarters. Something's
clearly not right with that picture.

[hockeystl]

Steve Wynn once said (I'm paraphrasing) "If you're not moving up every
two years then you're doing something wrong" as it relates to casino
employees. From my conversations with various VP pros, I believe the
same could be said for successful VP players.....

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "paladingamingllc" wrote:

When I'm in Vegas, and playing the locals stores, I see the same folks
week after week banging away on quarter FP stuff, or maybe dollars. I
feel a little sorry for them, especially the guys who have been
playing over 10 years and still are playing quarters. Something's
clearly not right with that picture.

[Robert3]

What's going on at ST has nothing to do with their stock price. All
stock prices are down even with companies that are still showing a
profit.

Like I said before, where do you go that it's going to be different?
I think we long time ST players are spoiled by the way it used to be
when they had the best comps in town. Those days are long gone, and
you just have to wonder WHY? They had all the good games then and
still gave out great comps. Casinos seemed to be making a profit, so
what changed? The fact that they became a corporation and got greedy
like everyone else.

[Harry_Porter]

paladingamingllc wrote:

When I'm in Vegas, and playing the locals stores, I see the same
folks week after week banging away on quarter FP stuff, or maybe
dollars. I feel a little sorry for them, especially the guys who
have been playing over 10 years and still are playing quarters.
Something's clearly not right with that picture.

hockeystl wrote:

Steve Wynn once said (I'm paraphrasing) "If you're not moving up
every two years then you're doing something wrong" as it relates to
casino employees. From my conversations with various VP pros, I
believe the same could be said for successful VP players.....

Every two years, huh? By inference, you're suggesting one should
double their bankroll every 2 years.

That seems a little dubious, but I generally like the spirit of what
you're saying -- with a LOT of caveats.

The key exception is simply that not all players elect to play to
their bankroll capacity ... for any number of reasons that make sound
sense.

- H.

[nightoftheiguana2000]

Starting with a 5 royal bankroll, at a percent edge you'd have to play
10 royal cycles to win 5 royals on average, that's about a half
million hands, about 500 hours over two years, that's about 5 hours a
week of actual play, add to that maybe a couple hours per week of
scouting and cover play. The problem is most people don't want to
scout or cover play, they see it as unproductive, and they spend their
royals instead of adding them to their bankroll, or even worse they
raid their bankroll for other diversions or non-productive gambling.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

Every two years, huh? By inference, you're suggesting one should
double their bankroll every 2 years.

[nightoftheiguana2000]

In case anyone wants more detail on how to do it, start with double
the Kelly bankroll. Kelly bankroll is approximately equal to
variance/edge bets. The chances of getting a double bankroll halved is
about 10% (use the ROR calc if you want the exact number), at which
point you should halve your bet, following Kelly strategy. The average
number of hands to double a Kelly bankroll is variance/edge^2 hands,
at which point you should double your bet. Example: FPDW+0.25%cb;
Double Kelly Bankroll = 2 x 26/.01 = 5,200 bets = 6.5 royals; Average
number of hands to double that = 2 x 26/.01/.01 = 520,000 hands,
somewhere between 500 and 1000 hours.

Jazbo on Kelly Strategy for VP, 1998:
http://www.jazbo.com/videopoker/kelly.html

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@> wrote:
> Every two years, huh? By inference, you're suggesting one should
> double their bankroll every 2 years.

Starting with a 5 royal bankroll, at a percent edge you'd have to play
10 royal cycles to win 5 royals on average, that's about a half
million hands, about 500 hours over two years, that's about 5 hours a
week of actual play, add to that maybe a couple hours per week of
scouting and cover play. The problem is most people don't want to
scout or cover play, they see it as unproductive, and they spend their
royals instead of adding them to their bankroll, or even worse they
raid their bankroll for other diversions or non-productive gambling.