I just returned from my first "advantaged player" trip to LV. Played 12 hours a
day single line .25 DB. I came home happy : I doubled my stake. 24 of those
hours were played at MST for double points. For this I was offered a free
buffet. Shouldn't 14,000 hands at double points be worth more than a free
buffet. I am still new to all this. Were my expectations to high? Help me find
some balance on this. Ray
Comps at Main Street Station
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "poochiekr4536l"
<poochiekr4536l@y...> wrote:
I just returned from my first "advantaged player" trip to LV.
Played 12 hours a
day single line .25 DB. I came home happy : I doubled my stake.
24 of those
hours were played at MST for double points. For this I was
offered a free
buffet. Shouldn't 14,000 hands at double points be worth more than
a free
buffet. I am still new to all this. Were my expectations to
high? Help me find
some balance on this. Ray
Unfortunately, you were playing at perhaps the tightest club in the
universe for comps. The base rate is 0.1% of coin-in. Furthermore, I
seem to recall it being said that the comp rate is "adjusted" if you
only play positive-expectation VP.
Your coin-in was $17,500, of which 1% is $175 and 0.1% is $17.50.
This would only have been enough for one buffet, with the base price
being in the $11-$14 range.
It would have been normal for your double points to post to your
account after some delay; most casinos that offer point multipliers
post a caveat that the extra points may not show up for as long as
three days. This is not because of any inherent difrficulty in
posting the points; after all, a couple of casinos DO post the
multiplied points instantly (Coast and El Cortez, for example):
rather, it's a marketing ploy to compel a return visit to get the
benefit of the additional points.
As a contrast, here's the comp rate for some other casinos featured
prominently in the database:
Stations 0.166
Palms 0.25
Coast 0.33
Downtown properties: Gaughan 0.2
Strip megatoilets (with bad VP) up to 0.5
The first four listed above all have VP at least as good at that
offered at MSS. However, MSS DOES still have the four-of-a-kind
scratchers, which add somewhere between 0.2-0.3% to your EV (bring a
rope to lasso a change girl so you can get the scratch cards in
under an hour).
I haven't played at MSS in quite a while, so things may be different
lately, but from the sound of your report, they aren't.
If you're coming into town to hit the .25 VP and make a few bucks
(God willing) in the process, you have to take into account several
factors, including comps/cashback, the availability of mailed room
offers, the ambiance/location of the hotel, as well as the inherent
EV of the games offered. You will find that the more convenient the
casino, and the closer it is to the "rest" of Vegas, the more
expensive the rooms and the worse the VP. I've said this before, but
I still think the best visitor's play is to rent a car and throw
some play at those locals' casinos that also offer good mailed
offers: Stations and Fiestas come to mind, and Coast has such low
room rates in the first place...You could also STAY at the Gold
Coast, spend a few hours playing their lousy VP (the first $10K of
action is actually positive EV if you count the value of the mailer,
which you may or may not be able to use), and dash across the street
to the Palms for some FPDW.
I suggest your spend a few hours perusing the database to find the
opportunities that best fit your inclinations and situation. You can
do better than MSS, I feel; this is not to disagree with those who
feel it is an excellent play due to the scratchers, the terrific
food, and the very nice rooms in a convenient location.
Kevin,
I also hate to correct you, but while it is conceivable that some casino
might have a motive such as you describe, most of these casinos' primary
systems are very old and antiquated and are literally unable to credit
multipliers immediately. (I am referring to those which do not do so.) In
other cases, such as Horseshoe the system can credit the multipliers to the
customer on the machine only if you give them the coupon prior to play.
Please realize that there are many people who read these posts who are
unfamiliar with the way the casinos operate. By posting your opinion ("it's
a marketing ploy") as a fact and by stating something as a fact ("This is
not because of any inherent difrficulty in
posting the points") which is not always true (and therefore NOT a fact)
you provide misinformation. Please refrain from doing so in the future.
Your opinions are your own, objective facts belong to themselves.
Thank you.
It would have been normal for your double points to post to your
account after some delay; most casinos that offer point multipliers
post a caveat that the extra points may not show up for as long as
three days. This is not because of any inherent difrficulty in
posting the points; after all, a couple of casinos DO post the
multiplied points instantly (Coast and El Cortez, for example):
rather, it's a marketing ploy to compel a return visit to get the
benefit of the additional points.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am making an assumption that you went over to the slot club and asked a boothling for a comp.
The boothlings are only authorised to hand out buffet comps. If you want more you will have to speak to a Slot/Casino Host.
Your level of play would have got you a better comp at MSS. I would guess a minimum of dinner for two in the 777 brew pub.
They get more generous when you build up a history with them. You will probably get some good offers in the mail from them.
Regards
A.P.
···
----- Original Message -----
From: poochiekr4536l
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 2:11 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Comps at Main Street Station
I just returned from my first "advantaged player" trip to LV. Played 12 hours a
day single line .25 DB. I came home happy : I doubled my stake. 24 of those
hours were played at MST for double points. For this I was offered a free
buffet. Shouldn't 14,000 hands at double points be worth more than a free
buffet. I am still new to all this. Were my expectations to high? Help me find
some balance on this. Ray
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The cash back rate is 0.1 % . The comp rate is higher, but it is not published.
I am a long time customer of MSS and have not found them to be as stingy as you have .
If you have a history with them and average 17000 per day you would most likely get full RFB.
The minimum you would get is limited RFB.
Regards
A.P.
···
----- Original Message -----
From: rockofjello333
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 7:16 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Comps at Main Street Station
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "poochiekr4536l"
<poochiekr4536l@y...> wrote:
Unfortunately, you were playing at perhaps the tightest club in the
universe for comps. The base rate is 0.1% of coin-in. Furthermore, I
seem to recall it being said that the comp rate is "adjusted" if you
only play positive-expectation VP.
Your coin-in was $17,500, of which 1% is $175 and 0.1% is $17.50.
This would only have been enough for one buffet, with the base price
being in the $11-$14 range.
It would have been normal for your double points to post to your
account after some delay; most casinos that offer point multipliers
post a caveat that the extra points may not show up for as long as
three days. This is not because of any inherent difrficulty in
posting the points; after all, a couple of casinos DO post the
multiplied points instantly (Coast and El Cortez, for example):
rather, it's a marketing ploy to compel a return visit to get the
benefit of the additional points.
As a contrast, here's the comp rate for some other casinos featured
prominently in the database:
Stations 0.166
Palms 0.25
Coast 0.33
Downtown properties: Gaughan 0.2
Strip megatoilets (with bad VP) up to 0.5
The first four listed above all have VP at least as good at that
offered at MSS. However, MSS DOES still have the four-of-a-kind
scratchers, which add somewhere between 0.2-0.3% to your EV (bring a
rope to lasso a change girl so you can get the scratch cards in
under an hour).
I haven't played at MSS in quite a while, so things may be different
lately, but from the sound of your report, they aren't.
If you're coming into town to hit the .25 VP and make a few bucks
(God willing) in the process, you have to take into account several
factors, including comps/cashback, the availability of mailed room
offers, the ambiance/location of the hotel, as well as the inherent
EV of the games offered. You will find that the more convenient the
casino, and the closer it is to the "rest" of Vegas, the more
expensive the rooms and the worse the VP. I've said this before, but
I still think the best visitor's play is to rent a car and throw
some play at those locals' casinos that also offer good mailed
offers: Stations and Fiestas come to mind, and Coast has such low
room rates in the first place...You could also STAY at the Gold
Coast, spend a few hours playing their lousy VP (the first $10K of
action is actually positive EV if you count the value of the mailer,
which you may or may not be able to use), and dash across the street
to the Palms for some FPDW.
I suggest your spend a few hours perusing the database to find the
opportunities that best fit your inclinations and situation. You can
do better than MSS, I feel; this is not to disagree with those who
feel it is an excellent play due to the scratchers, the terrific
food, and the very nice rooms in a convenient location.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kevin,
I also hate to correct you, but while it is conceivable that some
might have a motive such as you describe, most of these
casinos' primary systems are very old and antiquated and are
literally unable to credit multipliers immediately. (I am referring
to those which do not do so.) In other cases, such as Horseshoe the
system can credit the multipliers to the customer on the machine
only if you give them the coupon prior to play. Please realize that
there are many people who read these posts who are unfamiliar with
the way the casinos operate. By posting your opinion ("it's a
marketing ploy") as a fact and by stating something as a fact ("This
is not because of any inherent difrficulty in posting the points")
which is not always true (and therefore NOT a fact) you provide
misinformation. Please refrain from doing so in the future.
Your opinions are your own, objective facts belong to themselves.
Thank you.
Guess what! This isn't simply my opinion!
There are only two major players in the market of selling player-
tracking software and paraphernalia such as card readers, etc. I
don't recall the names of the two companies offhand, but you can see
their equipment everywhere: one kind of reader has a red LED screen
right above the slot where you insert the card; the box is usually
mounted to the side of or occasionally on top of the machine. This
style of reader is meant to be retrofitted.
The second style of reader is mounted directly in the machine
cabinet and is usually installed by the manufacturer before delivery.
The company that invented these licenses their manufacture, for a
royalty, to the major slot manufacturers (although there was an
offer to buy the technology outright).
Harrah's in particular, when it developed its player
tracking/rewards system, had to decide whether to use the
retrofitted readers or to upgrade its inventory wholesale. Since
most of its properties are non-Nevada jurisdictions, it was deemed
too costly to replace all the properties' inventory (machines tend
to last longer, in terms of maintenance and of player popularity,
in non-Nevada jurisdictions, so there was less inherent reason to
replace/upgrade machine inventory).
Now, BOTH companies offered proprietary software that does much the
same thing in terms of player tracking, maintaining comp/cashback
accounts, etc. Since the operator is able to independently set the
value of a "point", there is NO system that CANNOT award point
multipliers, modifiers, etc. All that would have to be done is to
write a subroutine that resets the value of a point to "2X" on
double point days, etc. (or halves the coin-in needed to earn one
point).
Believe me, I've asked this question of a dozen different slot
managers, primarily when I wanted a comp that I've earned but wasn't
credited to my account yet. I do get the usual hogwash that the
system isn't "capable" of doing it, blah, blah, blah. Now, you could
excuse this on the basis of the older (retrofit) systems being
somehow unable to do this (which is pretty hard to swallow), but,
for example, the EL Cortez uses the retrofit system, and the
multiple points are credited almost immediately. The same is true at
all the (former) Gaughan casinos, LVC, Plaza, etc. By contrast, the
much newer and more sophisticated systems at Stations don't post the
multipliers for days. Coast points post double ON THE FLY; what you
see is what you've earned.
I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to buy the story that the fancy new
zillion-dollar systems such as Stations has are INCAPABLE of
multiplying your points as you earn them, and the much older
systems such as the El Cortez's CAN do so. This is especially true
when you consider that multiple-point days are such an integral part
of Stations' promotional program. Do you really think that they
would have ordered a system wherein instant point-multiplying was
beyond its capabilities? Or rather the more likely scenario, that
the capability is in the system, but they choose not to use it?
As further "evidence", BTW, I've had several exasperated slot
managers TELL me that to make the conversion (to instant multiple-
point crediting) would be extremely simple, but they've been TOLD
not to do it.
All this is part of a matrix of information that has led to my
INFORMED opinion, which I am willing to back up. As a matter of
argument, it's quite possible that opinions ARE in fact, true.
In this case, since the casinos that don't credit multiplied points
could easily do so, at worst requiring a software upgrade, one must
conclude that for some reason, they have decided not to do so. The
only reason to award player benefits, but postpone the time when
they can be collected, is to encourage return visits to the casino.
Therefore I conclude the inability/refusal to credit multiple points
when earned is simply a marketing tactic, to get the most "player
visits" out of a given promotion (and getting the most "player
visits" for X dollars spent on a promotion is the PRIMARY goal of
casino marketing).
So that's my OPINION. Q.E.D.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333"
<rockofjello333@y...> wrote:
Therefore I conclude the inability/refusal to credit multiple
points
···
when earned is simply a marketing tactic, to get the most "player
visits" out of a given promotion (and getting the most "player
visits" for X dollars spent on a promotion is the PRIMARY goal of
casino marketing).
===============================
At Sam's Town, points are multiplied right away for use in cashback
or comps.
My experience with Stations and Fiesta is up to twenty-four hours to
get points multiplied. Stations was able to figure out how to credit
me with 1/2 points on fullpay machines, I'd think they could flip
that same switch that Sam's Town does?
Not 100% true. The front end systems are all pretty much the same. The
back end stuff can vary a LOT depending on how much a casino wanted to
pay. Do you want the ultra wiz bang bazillion dollar Sun big iron
server? Or would you like to run it on the old 386 PC we found in the
storage closet? I think this is where a lot of casinos (and other
places) cheap out too much. The attitued is we can always upgrade it
later, and so long as it can limp along, later never comes. This can
cause the "Lost Points" issue. (database server is too slow causing
lost transactions). And limit what can be done automatically.
(Flipping the auto 2x point switch and the tracking progam comes to an
ugly stop).
-Dave
···
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:56:12 -0000, staninnv <arnot@cox.net> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333"
<rockofjello333@y...> wrote:
> Therefore I conclude the inability/refusal to credit multiple
points
> when earned is simply a marketing tactic, to get the most "player
> visits" out of a given promotion (and getting the most "player
> visits" for X dollars spent on a promotion is the PRIMARY goal of
> casino marketing).At Sam's Town, points are multiplied right away for use in cashback
or comps.My experience with Stations and Fiesta is up to twenty-four hours to
get points multiplied. Stations was able to figure out how to credit
me with 1/2 points on fullpay machines, I'd think they could flip
that same switch that Sam's Town does?vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
Stations was able to figure out how to credit
me with 1/2 points on fullpay machines, I'd think they could flip
that same switch that Sam's Town does?
Total agreement with you Stan.
Not the least bit odd that the Fertitta's can cut something of value
to players in half faster than they can double it. Stations must
have made a decision to discourage VP enthusiasts in order to replace
them with more naive customers. Hey its a business.
And if Sam's Town can do it, why can't Boyd Downtown properties?